Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Good morning, and welcome back to the VIP Seat. We are covering the Challenger crash, as well as FAA funding coming up at the end of this month. Sit back, buckle up, and let's take off. 0:22 [upbeat music] All right, Preston. Um, obviously over the weekend, this is the big news that everyone's talking about, so we have to cover it. 0:33 Um, but a Challenger 600 flipped at the end of the runway at Bangor, and unfortunately seven fatalities have been reported at this point, um, with one critically injured. Yeah. 0:45 It has been reported that the principals were not on board, so the two principals that actually own the aircraft. Um, I believe that it was kind of ancillary people. 0:52 It appears that the aircraft was making a technical stop and to make fuel in Bangor, Maine on its way to France is what it looks like. Mm-hmm. And basically it didn't make it off the runway. 1:05 I mean, it was, it was on rollout, veered off the runway, and then flipped on its top. 1:10 Um, I've seen some, you know, some timelines of kind of what happened from a de-icing standpoint and when it got cleared for takeoff, but our, our thoughts and prayers are with the families of those people who were on board. 1:21 This is just, this is a really tough tragedy to hear about over the weekend. Yeah. 1:26 And look, to be totally honest, we haven't had a great year in private aviation the last year, so, um, you know, this is just kind of rubbing salt in the wound, and obviously our thoughts are with the family. 1:36 And we're not gonna sit here and speculate on what caused the crash, but I think a lot of people do have questions, so what I wanted to do today was just talk about some of the issues surrounding de-icing. 1:47 We're not saying that that was the reason for this crash. 1:49 Obviously, that's up to investigators later, but I think there's some critical things that brokers, customers need to know that could be related to this accident that I wanna talk with everybody about today. 2:00 Yeah, I think that'd be really helpful. I mean, I- it's 2:03 if you look at the circumstances of the situation, I think de-icing is the first thing that makes sense to go kind of consider and to, to think about and talk about because, uh, it, it was kind of the first thing everybody thought was, "Wow, it was snowing." 2:18 Mm-hmm. So what, what happened there? I saw some speculations that they had skipped de-icing. I- that is not the case. You can see in the ATC transcripts that they did actually de-ice. Mm-hmm. 2:31 But I think that understanding protocols and processes for 91 flying, 135 flying, and 121 flying is important to kind of understand the difference between the, the procedures for the three of those. 2:46 Yeah, and I think this is one of those areas where, you know, a, a lot of people go, "Oh, 135 is the same as 121," and I'm saying this is a case specifically in which it is not. 2:56 Um, so under 121 Air- Airlines, they have to go through a HOT program, which is holdover tables. 3:03 Basically, scientists have gotten together and figured out these different types of de-icing fluid, how quickly do they run off, in what conditions, in what temperatures. 3:11 There's all sorts of variables that go into forming these tables, and the airlines have to use those tables. There is no ifs, ands, or buts. That's part of the procedure. 3:20 In Part 91 and 135, however, uh, because they're smaller operations, most of them do not have this program. 3:27 Um, I could say people like NetJets do, but it's, it's a bit of a problem because it leaves people guessing sometimes in private aviation, and I have talked to many crew members who always feel uncomfortable de-icing because it's really not taught in the same way that it is in the airlines. 3:43 Um, so, you know, let's say you're in snow. The airlines have maybe, you know, 10 to 30 minutes according to their HOT table of from the time the de-icing starts to getting off on the runway. 3:54 Now, 91, 135, they may reference those tables and look at them, but the legal requirement is that they get out of the plane and look at the wing, look at the tail, make sure it's not contaminated. 4:05 But let's be totally honest, like, nobody's doing that. Maybe some people are doing that, but nobody's getting out on the taxiway at Teterboro and actually checking their wing, and that's a problem. Yeah, exactly. 4:16 I mean, the reality is, is that it's cold outside- [laughs]... and you have your engines on, and that, I mean, those two things, like, are you gonna shut down, get out, look? 4:27 By that point, you're probably more likely you're spending time and creating a scenario where you're probably making it worse than better, and so I think that that's probably, you know, what the case is. 4:38 I don't, I think that understanding the difference between, and, and even the difference between 135 and 91 in this scenario, right- Mm-hmm... 4:47 where, where operational control is something that matters I think is something that you have to consider, especially for, like, the general public, right? 4:55 So I, I had a few people reach out to me and say, "Hey, you know, what does this mean? Is de-icing unsafe in private airplanes?" and those kinds of things, and it's not per se. Right. 5:06 Uh, but the reality is, is that the, um, the way in which the process works is different than it does in airlines. Mm-hmm. 5:16 And so having a trusted provider that understands their aircraft and their timelines and the airport that they're taking off at and things like that are really important. 5:25 And I think, too, another point just to point out is the idea of get there-itis, right? Mm-hmm. When, when you're in a commercial airliner, 5:34 no matter how important anybody is in the back, there's no one l- that can lean up to the pilots and say, "Hey, we're, like, let's go," you know? "I'm gonna make the decision, and let's go ahead and go." 5:44 Uh, it is ultimately the pilot's responsibility. 5:48 Now, it's always the pilot's responsibility to be in control of the aircraft, and what they say goes, but a lot of times there's a lot of pressure from the people in the back in private aviation scenarios, and it's, "Hey, we've got to get there. 6:00 We need to go. Is everything good?" And, and-The people who are in the back tend to be the person who gets listened to the other 95% of their life. They are calling the shots, they are making the decisions. Yeah. 6:14 And so when that translates into the aircraft, and maybe you have a pilot who doesn't have, uh, an assertive personality, right? 6:21 It has nothing to do with their training and has nothing to do with their ability as a pilot, but maybe their personality is not as assertive as the person who's in the back. 6:31 That is when you get into those get their itis scenarios, and those are, those are the things that everybody has, everybody in private aviation has to be aware of. 6:41 Yeah, I mean, who wants to tell the principal that now you have to spend the night in Bangor instead of getting to Paris on time? That's a lot of pressure. 6:49 Now, we don't know what happened in this case, again, speculative, but you know, I just, I, I really wish people could understand it. Like, it's not dangerous to fly in snow. Okay, not inherently dangerous. 6:59 Like everything in aviation, there are risks, there are controlled risks. 7:02 Flying in winter weather is not necessarily a risky thing as long as there are proper procedures and standards and training in place the, so that the pilot and the crew members understand fully how to mitigate those risks of, of contamination. 7:16 Now, the problem is in 91 and 135, it's just not, um, it's not as routine. I think it needs to be a lot more routine. 7:23 We don't really spend a lot of time teaching the differences between the fluids, what it can do to the aircraft. 7:29 I mean, you know, we've had, we've had conversations on the show about de-icing fluid and how corrosive it is, making sure you're washing the plane after. 7:35 There's a lot of detail and complexity in this space that I don't think 135 and 91 is focusing enough on. 7:43 So, I mean, uh, we don't know what this outcome is gonna be, but we do know there were two previous crashes with Challenger 600 series aircraft, one in 2004, one in 2002, and both of them involved wing contamination and the crew not understanding winter procedures. 7:58 So I think, again, if that is the case here, even if it's not the case, let's focus a little more on winter weather operations, and brokers and clients have a little more breathing room and understanding because it's a lot more complex than it sounds like it should be, and it can vary airplane to airplane. 8:16 Some airplanes, especially in business jets, can't even handle Type IV de-icing fluid, which means they can't fly at all, versus some that can. 8:23 So there's a lot of variation here, and just trust your pilot and listen to your pilot and don't try to push. Yep, exactly. 8:30 You know Jessie is our resident safety girl, so she is going to be sure to preach those, those good safety habits. 8:38 I think too, as operators, is understanding what type of systems and processes you can put in place to help with this with your pilots, right? 8:48 If you have a set checklist and, and here's our parameters, go and no-go scenarios, you know, it's, it's not even a question. 8:55 I was talking to a broker friend, and he was like, "Yeah, it's real awkward when the principal's calling me and yelling." And I'm like, "Dude, commercial airplanes aren't even taking off. 9:05 They're shutting down the airport." Right. And he's like- Right... "Well, I might as well have flown commercial." It's like you wouldn't have gotten there either, right? If you had- Right... flown commercial, right? 9:13 It's, it's just the reality- And things change-... of it... so fast, you know. I think in this case it seemed like it was light snow, but then some were saying it's more like moderate snow. 9:20 So the forecast says one thing, but the reality on the ground is different. Yeah, it, it, it's complicated and it just, yeah, it's a tragic situation. Yep, exactly. VIP Seat is brought to you by RealJet. 9:32 One thing that sets RealJet apart is their commitment to safety and quality at every level. Every operator they work with meets top-tier industry standards. It's private aviation with real oversight and not guesswork. 9:44 And when it comes to aircraft access, RealJet gives you the full spectrum. 9:48 More than 1,500 premium options from light jets to ultra-long-range cabins, from short regional flights to international missions, their team curates the ideal aircraft and operator to deliver a seamless, best-in-class experience. 10:02 With RealJet, you feel the difference from the moment you book. Real people, real trust, RealJet. Well, let's move on to our Mile High Madness section. 10:11 This is where Jessie and I scour the internet and we find awesome private business aviation, sometimes commercial aviation. Jessie's oftentimes revolve around dogs. 10:21 Uh, and but these are relevant social media posts for you to be aware of. I will go first. This is Grant Cardone. So those that don't know who Grant Cardone is, he's the 10X guy, and Grant has gone global. 10:37 Uh, he threatened a lot on social media against Gulfstream. He's a longtime Gulfstream guy, and he has officially gone global with his Global, I think it's a 7500. 10:48 I don't know if he actually took delivery at the 8000 or if he's waiting for the upgrade. I don't know off the top of my head. Someone at Bombardier wants to let us know. 10:56 Uh, but he has gone global, so he has sold, he sold his G650. 11:01 Um, the word on the street is, is that he sold his G650 after he basically got an offer he couldn't refuse, and was like, "Oh, okay, well, I'll go ahead and sell it," put the order in, chartered for a little while, and now has taken delivery. 11:13 And you can tell 'cause he has a very unique livery, uh- [chuckles]... 'cause it's got GC on the back. So subtle, subtle private aircraft ownership, so congratulations, Grant Cardone, on your Global. 11:25 He also has a Falcon 900, I think, at, that's parked at OPF. Uh, you c- you can see it sometimes. It's, like, usually parked over in the corner. I have seen it a couple of times. So he has a couple of aircraft. 11:38 Well, good for you, Grant. He is, uh, a subtle character, shall we say. Yeah, definitely. Su- subtlety and tact, that is really his specialty. All right, so mine this week, I don't know who's coming up with these ideas. 11:53 So apparently there's a group, and this is in my, like, hometown here in Fort Lauderdale and Atlanta, they're doing Pilates in a private aircraft hangar. 12:01 Um, it's called Planes & Pilates, a luxury elevated wellness experience. And the problem I have here, I love doing events in hangars. I think it's cool, but, like, do you really wanna be breathing in, like- Mm-hmm... 12:13 fumes and chemicals and other things that are in hangars while you're doing your Pilates? 12:20 I just don't-I don't see these two worlds going together, and I don't understand this Nothing, nothing says luxurious fitness experience like the smell of Jet A and some pilot rolling through the back, you know? 12:33 Or, or not-- either, either a pilot or a mechanic who's like, "Oh, I need to go check out the airplane," and they're, like, walking through and they're like, "Oh, look, all these women are doing Pi- [chuckles] Oh, crazy. 12:44 Didn't, didn't know you were gonna be here. Like, crazy." So, [chuckles] it's terrible. I don't-- it just, it doesn't, it just doesn't seem like the worlds come together. I mean, I don't know. 12:54 I think Jet A is good for my soul, but for most people probably not. [chuckles] Yeah, exactly. I'm also wondering, like, who's the target market for this? Like, I think the target market is, like, influencer moms. 13:07 Like, mom inf- like, momfluencers, right? Who are like young kids but like to still work out and still like to feel luxurious and they're like, "Check out my picture in front of this plane." 13:17 Like, this is a social me- it's a social media play. Like, no one, no one who's like, "You know what? I could go for a nice, relaxing Pilates session with airplanes taking off and helicopters coming and lots of chaos." 13:31 Like, that's not... It's a social media play. So the one that did make sense to me, I think... Did we share this on one of ours? But it was they were doing, like, the outdoor biking next to the runway. That was cool. 13:41 Like, in Dubai- Mm.... all these, like, 380s were taking off and, like, they had the little- That's cool... stationary bikes. Like, that's kind of fun 'cause that's, like, high energy, you know, exciting. 13:50 But Pilates maybe not so much. Yeah. It's -- I wonder if it's sponsored by Red Bull. This kinda feels like a, like a female attempt at, like, a Red Bull sponsorship, right? 14:00 It's like, "Hey, look, you know, not just crazy stunts, but also Pilates in front of a plane." Yeah. All right. 14:06 Well, after this, you know, podcast, there's gonna be a whole bunch more of these yoga, Pilates pop-up events. We've inspired a whole generation. Yeah. Good Lord, it's like detailer guys too. 14:15 It's- They, they all pop up 'cause of social media. Well, moving on to our next story, uh, the FlexJet and Honeywell lawsuit has officially been settled. 14:25 So for those who are longtime listeners, you know that we've covered this a couple of different times as things have evolved. We actually had Ken Rickey on the show to come give his side of the story. 14:35 Don't know if that had any sort of effect on the actual outcome here. 14:39 Uh, but there has been a settlement, and there's two other parties that I -- Jesse and I neither had an i- had any idea were a party to this lawsuit, but Duncan and StandardAero were involved on the peripherals, and their stuff has been settled too. 14:55 Yeah. So apparently this got tacked onto this case, which, which I really didn't catch before, and one has to assume this is not small money. 15:03 I mean, we were talking about 91 engines that were off wing, 40 aircraft that were parked, a billion dollars in damages. 15:11 I have to imagine Duncan and StandardAero, if they were caught up in the middle of this, probably have been missing millions of dollars in payments, if I had to guess, from FlexJet. 15:19 So that's an interesting wrinkle here that, you know, not only the, the people in between can also get in the middle of these situations, which we obviously know, but I didn't realize it was connected to the case. 15:29 But they say the case has been settled. Um, Honeywell booked $470 million, um, on their books to resolve the litigation. 15:39 But FlexJet, of course, came out and said, "Well, actually it is a billion dollars because of everything that we negotiated [chuckles] with the settlement." 15:46 But they are gonna remain, um, friendly-ish because they have now signed an agreement through 2035 for these engine programs. Yeah. 15:54 So an extension, I guess that is like you almost wonder if a lot of this was just it was positioning and it was... I, I think the reality of a contract like this is it's a, it's a contract that's too big to fail. Mm-hmm. 16:07 It is too detrimental to both sides of the, to both parties for this contract to completely dissolve, and so it's more of how do we get to a resolution that works for both of our businesses? 16:19 Again, back to the Duncan and StandardAero thing, my understanding is, is that it was basically the way they got looped in is that, and, and Ken touched on this, is that Honeywell pushed a lot of their overhaul responsibilities from the contract down to those players. 16:34 Mm. When Honeywell didn't pay them, they said, "Hey, actually, you're the one who owes us money, FlexJet." Mm. And FlexJet said, "No, we don't. It's this contract, so it's Honeywell that owes you money." 16:46 I think that it's, I think that the reality is, is that you had, you had all of these players basically pointing fingers, and they had to come together to settle something because it would've not been good for any of the four entities to have this contract completely dissolve because it was gonna be, be hurtful all around. 17:03 And so getting to a resolution here is net positive, and I think that, you know, I, I hope that this is, you know, we don't talk about this for another nine years, but who knows? 17:14 [chuckles] I also have to wonder, I'm so curious now, what were the guarantees that were put into place to extend the maintenance agreement through 2035? 17:22 Because you know after the bond deal where there were a lot of support pieces in that contract, you know, when they buy, bought those airplanes, now what is FlexJet expecting of Honeywell moving forward, and how is this gonna impact everybody else, you know? 17:36 Maybe there's more accountability in the future for these agreements and damages. I don't know. We'll have to see how it plays out. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, hope- I, I think that more will probably come out. 17:47 Honeywell is publicly traded, so it's a, this is a unique situation. 17:52 We talk about some of these skirmishes that happen between private companies, and you get kind of PR releases, and that's about it, and so it's kind of he said, she said. Mm. 18:01 In this scenario, Honeywell has a fiduciary duty to actually explain what's going on, so we will be able to see what's going to happen, you know, on an ongoing basis. Yeah. 18:12 And I think this is a good lesson for everybody that, um, you know, maintain your relationships, but sometimes if you have to go to court to get those relationships moving forward, it sometimes happens. 18:22 Yep, exactly.Well, moving on to our next story, the FAA funding and the government shut- the apparently pending government shutdown again for Thursday is causing some, what we thought was good news- [laughs]... 18:36 is kind of in jeopardy. So here we are back again talking about FAA funding. Yeah. 18:40 So last week a lot of the trade groups were sending out these emails saying, "Yay," you know, "the House is going to agree to these bills so that we can maintain funding for the FAA even if there is a shutdown, so our airspace system takes- stays open." 18:55 Now, this hasn't really been covered a lot publicly yet, but here at the VIP seat we try to keep you on the edge of news. 19:02 I see politically what's happening here is that, look, we had the big issue in Minnesota this weekend. Everybody's, like, ready to fight again, and the left is talking a lot about shutdowns again. 19:13 The right is going to need some form of power to keep that from happening, and I think, you know, this is Jessie's speculative idea, but I think what's gonna happen is people get really frustrated when their flights get delayed, and that seems to put a lot more political pressure on anyone creating a shutdown. 19:33 So I don't see the right kind of giving on this issue because it's a big piece of leverage to keep the shutdown from happening. I don't know, what are your thoughts? Yeah. 19:44 I think, I think that the big problem is, is that there hasn't been a solve for the lumping in of the FAA with the rest of the government shutdown. 19:53 And so because that has not been solved, I think that it is a bargaining chip, and that is part of- Mm... 19:58 the challenge here is that until you can bifurcate that the FAA can stay open regardless of status of the government being open or not, then there- then whoever the opposition is on this, and, and I think that if the parties were flipped, it would be the exact same way. 20:14 [laughs] 'Cause this is just a leverage point, and if a- and I think in four or eight or, you know, three or nine years, or however long the next election cycle is, if the parties flip, if this doesn't get passed, I can totally see this happening on the other side. 20:30 So I think that it's important from a, from a government political leverage position to not include the FAA, and that is not because we're aviation people. 20:39 It has a lot to do with kind of public safety and public sentiment because when you have your aircraft controllers working three, four, five weeks without getting paid, they're probably having to work second jobs, which means that they're now gonna be tired. 20:52 You have this compounding problem specifically to that segment. Now, I have some friends who are in kind of the SBA lending world and the SBA transaction world. 21:02 That all also got shut down during the last shutdown, and people were very upset they couldn't get their SBA loans. Mm-hmm. 21:09 But at the end of the day, if you don't get your SBA loans, like, you know, bummer, big, you know, it's, it's an inconvenience, but it's not a, it's not a public safety issue. Mm-hmm. 21:18 And so I think that bifurcating it is it eliminates the FAA from being a political bargaining chip and airlines and people's air travel becoming a, a way in which politicians can get things that they want. 21:32 Yeah, and I think this had bipartisan support up until this weekend, and now that, you know, some people are calling for the defunding or reduction in funding for the Department of Homeland Security because of what's going on, everyone needs to start building up their bargaining chips again, and I worry that this is gonna fall victim to that. 21:50 Don't know. That's not been put out there. There are people talking about the shutdown. 21:53 That's not necessarily going to happen, but the key piece of the funding, it was the Aviation Funding Stability and Solvency bills, which would allow the FAA to tap into, there's an insurance revolving fund and the AATF, the Trust Fund for Airport and Airways, and it would keep controller and operations pay going. 22:12 Uh, there was also the Keep America Flying Act, which would guarantee pay for air traffic controllers, TSA, and prevent systems from degrading during this time. But again, that was bipartisan up until this weekend. 22:23 I'll be curious to see how this all plays out this week. But the decision needs to be made by January 30th 'cause that's when the shutdown could happen. 22:30 Yeah, and just a side note on all of this, it feels a little bit like 2026. Everybody's like, "All right, 2024 election, it was crazy. 2025 will be better." And then 2025 was pretty crazy. 22:44 [laughs] So everybody said, "Okay, we're getting into 2026. Maybe it's gonna be better." We're 28 days into this thing and, like, honestly, it feels like three years at this point. It's just, it's kind of mad. 22:56 There, there's a lot of chaos going on. Yeah. And so hopefully we can kind of, I don't know, turn the volume down just a little bit on all of this stuff and- Yeah... 23:07 find common ground and remember that we're all Americans at the end of the day. Again, this is not a political show. It's just, hey, maybe for the next little bit we could all calm down a little bit. 23:17 Like that would probably be- Let's get along... probably be a good idea. Lower the rhetoric and not threaten tariffs anymore. That was the other piece that we didn't even cover because it was, it came and went. 23:27 [laughs] It went too fast. It came and went so fa- it ca- okay, between us releasing the last show and this show, the Pilatus aircraft once again were under threat for like two days- Yeah... 23:38 'cause of the Greenland thing. Yeah. And then it was like, "Nope, just kidding." No, no tariffs. So poor, poor Pilatus owners, I'll just say that. Yeah, just, just living every day at the edge of their seat. 23:50 Yeah, no kidding. Well, speaking of living at the edge of your seat, you would also be at the edge of your seat if you thought you might be about to get fired. That or laid off, sorry. That is a correction. Laid off. 24:01 Because Wheels-Up has done another round of layoffs. 24:03 We did not cover this last week, but it was a good thing because there's kind of been a few compounding pieces to this story that have happened over the last week that make this really relevant. 24:12 But Wheels-Up has done another round of layoffs, approximately 20-ish plus positions, which is under 2%. And the way that layoff rules work in the United States, I think that still technically qualifies. 24:25 It's very on the edge of technically being a layoff.Uh, but they reduced their staff primarily in the sales roles. 24:32 And so I think that this is probably what many would consider the first, the first sign of Delta synergies in the Wheels Up business unit. Yeah. 24:42 And I'm really curious, was this just some sort of, like, internal reorganization? 24:47 Because honestly, you know, and I hate to say it, these are important jobs, but 20 jobs in the scheme of how big the company is, is not a huge amount. 24:55 So was this kind of more an isolated streamlining of the organization, or is this the, the beginning of more cost savings? 25:03 They're trying to get $70 million of cost savings, which is up another $20 million from last year when they announced this, so there's a lot to do. 25:11 They, they financed some airplanes, which helped them bring in some cash as well. But it's hard to say what's gonna happen. I mean, the, the sale leaseback of the last 10 jets, they just... That was last week as well. 25:23 Um, $105 million in proceeds. They paid down their debt by $65 million. So is that cost savings or not? Like, where, where's the rest of the 70 million gonna come from? 25:34 Yeah, I think, uh, calling a $105 million sale leaseback is, uh, I don't know if that's cost reduction. That's more of a recapitalization. It is- That is a-... 25:45 I think- That's a balance sheet activity, and you are-- Yeah, it's, it's expensive money. I mean, the going rate on these sale leasebacks, just for those who are curious, is around 1% per month for the asset value. 25:58 Mm-hmm. So I think we'll see this actually come out in their next set of earnings reports. So 26:04 again, not investment advice, this is complete speculation, but let's say their 10 aircraft sale leaseback transaction followed market rates, which is 1% per month. They are now spending, 26:17 doing public math here, which is never wise. At least 12%. 12%- Mm... per year on $105 million. See, I'm supposed to be the math guy, but here we are. [laughs] I'm, like, trying to divide by 12 in my head. So 105 million 26:35 times.01 is, that is one million fi- 50 thou- $1,050,000 per month- Yeah... of lease payments. When you really do the math, it's like your cost of capital goes to, like, 16% or something like that. Mm-hmm. 26:53 I don't know what the debt that they refinanced was at, but sale leaseback is not, um, I don't know if it's something to, like, necessarily scream from the rooftops that, like, "Hey, this is awesome. 27:02 This is a great recapitalization activity." It is probably necessary based off of their capital stack, but I- Mm-hmm... I wouldn't say that it's like, "Oh, look at us reducing all of these costs." Like- Yeah. 27:14 I will say it's very airline-esque too. A lot of airlines usually balance, you know, it used to be like 50% were owned, 50% were leases. That's just kind of how a lot of airlines like to put that together. 27:27 Um, I think it's interesting though, so on top of these announcements, they also put out this press release last week that was talking about they hadn't had any cancellations for 14 days, and I, I jokingly commented on a post that, like, tell me you're an airline executive without telling me you're an airline executive by [laughs] 27:47 announcing a leaseout. Because here's the thing- It's like- We, we do not have cancellations in private aviation. Let me just explain this to everyone here. We don't have cancellations. 27:56 We have substitutions, we have supplemental lift, we have-- We, we don't let flights not go unless there's a safety issue, right? Like de-icing or something that happens, like- Mm-hmm. 28:04 So this whole press release that came out, I was like, "Why are we bragging?" 28:08 Either there was an issue with cancellations and customers were not being rebooked on different airplanes, or I don't know, this is just messaging to investors. I, I really don't, I don't understand it. 28:19 It doesn't make sense. Yeah. Our, in our industry it's called recovery. [laughs] So it's never a cancellation. It just may be an AOG, and you have to recover- Yeah... 28:30 with another aircraft in, and the passengers still go, and you're not canceling. I, yeah, I, I think, I think somebody didn't think twice about what that's actually saying. 28:42 [laughs] And that's, that's part of the challenge here, is that I don't know if that's 100%. I don't think it landed the way that they thought that it was going to land. No, no, definitely not. 28:53 I, I got a lot of texts about it that were like, "Ha ha, this is funny." 28:56 [laughs] Well, al- that's also just, like, from the client perspective, you know, the customers that you're trying to bring in on private jets, like, we don't-- The cancellations are not an option. 29:06 Like, you will find me something. You will find me an equivalent airplane or a slightly less equivalent airplane for a better price. You know, you will not cancel my flight. That just, that's not how we work here. 29:17 Yeah, exactly. Maybe they had no AOGs for 14 days. That would be like, "Hey, we had no mechanicals for 14 days." Cool. That would actually be something to celebrate. 29:26 You're like, "Hey, look, we have gotten our maintenance and planned maintenance kind of down to a science," and that's fantastic. Um- Which is totally in line with the issues that they were having- Yeah. Right... 29:37 because that's why they're making the new fleet transition is because the dispatch reliability on this airplane isn't as good as the Phenom 300, which I could have told you like 15 years ago. 29:46 But, you know, maybe that's something that we talk about, not necessarily cancellation language was just weird. So just pro tip out there for anyone listening from Wheels Up. Yeah, maybe not cancellation. 29:56 Well, if you do get your flight canceled, maybe you can fake your way into a free flight, which is what happened in the Dallas Pokernik case. Po-Pokernik? Poker-- How do you say this guy's- Yep. I don't-... last name? 30:09 Pokernik? Pokernik. Dallas Pokernik. Pokernik. 30:12 I don't know, a 33-year-old [laughs] Canadian from Toronto who was a former flight attendant that worked for some Canadian air carrier, we don't know who, used a fake company ID badge to pose as a current pilot and flight attendant and received, what? 30:27 Like, hundreds of flights, and even requested the jump seat in some cases, despite having no pilot record and no certificate. 30:36 And, uh, this is just such a crazy story and apparently is not the only one who has done this in the last few years. 30:42 Yeah, the thing that really blows me away at this is like-I think if you used to be a flight attendant and you snuck on, maybe, maybe you worked as a flight attendant from 2017 to 2019, and maybe the back half of 2019 you still got your free flights, I'd be like, "Okay." 30:58 [laughs] I can see how you could get away with that. This was way longer than that. Like this was- Yes... I mean, this was like years and years of this, and finally got picked up in Panama. 31:10 And so they were using fake, you know, they're, they were using credentials to get through the known crew member and, and all of that kind of stuff. 31:19 I have a question about that, and this is 100% out of ignorance and, and not out of having knowledge. But, like, on my car, when I have to renew the registration, the sticker is a different color every year. 31:31 And so, like, you can tell, hey, if that is purple, that is last year's tag. Mm-hmm. Do not go. Do these credentials not have any sort of, like, this credential is clearly expired, like, clearly visible on them? 31:43 Like, I don't, I, I genuinely don't know that. I'm curious. 31:46 So I think what happens here is it's probably printed somewhere, but also the process, like, if you're a known crew member, I- you often see, and you see this in the airports, it's just kind of a wave through. 31:56 You know, like, "Oh," you know, especially if they're wearing a uniform. And I think, I, I don't know the background now, but if I had to guess, the guy probably was wearing a uniform to make himself seem more legit. 32:05 And let's be honest, just like human nature, no matter how good of a TSA agent is, you know, they see something that looks like a crew badge, you know, or a known crew member pa- tag, and they're wearing a uniform, "Come on through. 32:16 Go get to your flight. You're in a hurry." Like, we see it all the time. It's, it's absolutely wild to me. I do think there is a chip on the known crew member badge, if I recall. It's been a few years. 32:24 But I don't know how often that actually gets scanned or checked or what the deal is. Yeah. I'd say that is an interesting security flaw, and it feels- Mm... 32:33 a little bit like that's a loophole that we should get closed up, especially if somebody else, like, other people have done this. Mm-hmm. We found a couple of times in which this has been done. Like, this is common-ish. 32:45 I wonder if there's, like, a Reddit thread of people that are like, "Hey, here's how you, like, fake getting free flights." [laughs] Well, and apparently, so this other one was, this was June of last year. 32:56 This person was caught, um, they were posing as a flight attendant, took 120 free flights from 2018 to 2024. 33:04 And the thing that they do, too, which I'm not, like, from the airline world, but apparently there is a desk that you can go to in the airport. So these people know where this desk is. 33:12 You know, they know where the crew area is. They get some, they steal badges from other crew members and put their name on them or change their identity. I don't know how it's all done. I'm not a criminal. 33:23 [laughs] But apparently they've exploited, like, this crew travel benefit desk, and they just go up there and say, "Hey, you got a flight going to blah, blah, blah?" 33:30 And they look like they have the uniform on, which you can probably buy on the internet somewhere. It's absolutely crazy, and I think TSA is gonna be having a much harder look at this. Yeah, no kidding. 33:39 This is, I mean, talk about travel hacking, though. I mean, this is the ultimate travel hack. [laughs] Uh, but, but not in a good way. 33:46 [laughs] If you don't mind 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine, which is what the first guy got. [laughs] Yeah, don't do this. That's The VIP's advice. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of our show. 33:57 Uh, thank you for listening. It really means a lot to us. We are, uh, one of the top business aviation podcasts, and the only way that that is possible is because of people who listen just like you. 34:07 So what we need from you is we wanna continue to grow this show, so please send it to a couple of your friends in the industry. Make sure that they stay up to date. 34:16 I had a friend that said, "I didn't totally understand, uh, the whole FAA registration thing." I sent him a link to the podcast, and he said, "Ah, now I'm informed." 34:26 So that's our goal here, is we wanna keep you informed with what's going on in the, in the industry. Sign up for the newsletter at thevipseat.com. 34:34 Thanks again to Real Jet for sponsoring this week's episode of the podcast, and we will see you all next week. 34:45 [outro music]
