Trump tariff impacts on private aircraft; NYC Gateway Project could shutdown medevac heliport

Jessie Naor (00:00)

Good morning and welcome to the VIP seat. Today is December 5th and our top stories in aviation today include how large aircraft manufacturers are working on single pilot operations and how Trump's proposed 25 % tariff on Canada and Mexico may be a pretty big impact on the industry. Your hosts today include yours truly, Jessie Naor and our co-host today is Guy Barber. Guy, welcome to the show.

Guy B (00:22)

Thanks Jess, happy to be here.

Jessie Naor (00:23)

Awesome. All right, folks, sit back, buckle up, and let's take

All right, so Guy, you are a, I would say, different guest than we usually have on the show. It's business aviation, and you're really more of the medevac/ medical "Guy" and for those

don't know, Guy and I have known each other a really long time. I don't know, maybe.

14 years at this point. can't even say it like,

Guy B (00:53)

Who's counting? Who's counting?

Jessie Naor (00:55)

But yeah, maybe walk our audience through your history, your background and what you're into these days.

Guy B (01:01)

Yeah, thanks, Jess. Yeah, so mine actually is this kind of nexus between medical and aviation. I started as a paramedic in the late 90s. I have to do the math in my head now. In the late 90s, and then I was a flight paramedic in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area with a program called STAT Medevac. And then just loved it so much that I really just stayed in the industry for my whole career. So I was a program director at a Medevac program.

Jessie Naor (01:27)

Okay.

Guy B (01:29)

And then as you and I got connected, we got into really innovative space in the transplant world, which back in the early 2000s was really kind of unexplored in the corporate charter land. And so we really kind of brought a lot of what I had seen in the medical application to charter, and then the business charter and created a nice mix up there. And then I ended up working with one of the large private equity owned

National Aeromedical Firms, where I was the Senior Vice President and Executive, and I had oversight of just over 100 aeromedical bases. So really that's been my thread, is a super big passion for aviation and a love of EMS and medical, and this is a kind of a nice niche that I found for myself.

Jessie Naor (02:11)

Nice, nice. Yeah, it's a very, very different world than most people know about that we were just strictly in business aviation. A little more pressure and stress, I would say sometimes to get things done, but also being safe. It's a delicate balance. Cool. Well, so one of the first things that's come out, and it's probably super relevant to your neck of the woods, but as everyone knows, there's very limited heliports in New York City.

Guy B (02:27)

for

Jessie Naor (02:38)

One of the only ones that's actually open 24-7 and does transport flights or transplant transport flights and other things like that is probably going to be closed at least for a temporary time early next year or later next year. The $16 billion rail tunnel project connecting New York and New Jersey has just received approval. And this is to replace a 100-year-old tunnel that's running Amtrak service essentially through the city. But this is concerning.

to a lot of folks that are landing at that heliport. What are you hearing? Are there other options for people to get into the city than just West 30th or we're gonna have to figure something out here.

Guy B (03:16)

Yeah, I think there's still more to be fleshed out here. I think this has been a classic challenge in New York. As you know, everything medical, whether it's transplant or a typical patient transport is generally time sensitive, right, by definition. And so if you're using aviation assets, fixed wing, rotorcraft, you're super concerned with any opportunity to minimize time delays.

And so obviously landing and the transport, even by ground, I have to tell you, we've landed at that heliport many times and there's times it takes a while for the ambulance to connect there. Even once they pick us up to get from the heliport to the hospital, that's not an easy ride either. And I'll also tell you that every transition, when you have a patient on a stretcher, transition from a hospital bed to an bed, into the ambulance, transition again onto the helicopter or airplane bed,

Jessie Naor (03:49)

Right.

Guy B (04:06)

each of those transitions is disruptive and pretty uncomfortable for patients. So, yeah, that's kind of the broad story of the impact that it could have. So, you know, look, this will require, as usual, some conversations and really, you know, people have to work together to come up with some innovative solutions. But what I would suggest is, you know, the area has needed some creative solutions for quite some time. And as you know, things don't move quickly there because there's a lot of interests in New York. So maybe something like this would actually force the conversation.

Jessie Naor (04:11)

Yeah.

Guy B (04:35)

to finally progress.

Jessie Naor (04:39)

Yes, someone who wrote about it and I it was New York Daily News or something, you he was a former transplant recipient and said, this is basically like shutting down ambulance traffic on like a main thoroughfare in New York City. know, and imagine the delays and issues that that causes it because West 30th is the only one on the West side. The only other options are, you know, very south tip of Manhattan or East 34th Street.

if you're needing to be on the west side, that's a significant time impact. I don't even know what time it takes to get from one to the other, but it's not short.

Guy B (05:11)

Yeah, no, for sure. know, look, and when I say creativity, I it could be to the point of now you need a police escort to move because that's the kind of time savings that, you know, that traffic can impact. You know, the ideal situation obviously is a helipad on the roof. But as you know, that's a pretty limit. That's not something you do quickly or cheaply. And from a regulation standpoint, you know, let's talk creatively. Like, is there a place in Central Park?

Jessie Naor (05:23)

Yeah.

Thank

Guy B (05:36)

We would have never discussed that years before. But hypothetically, could that be a solution? Maybe they would talk about it now and they wouldn't have before. I could tell you we did a lot of transports in DC right after 9-11 when the FRZ first started. And partnering with the park police and partnering with the DC police, we were able to land on the mall right near the Lincoln Memorial for some of the hospitals in that area. So again, that's not something they would have done traditionally, but 9-11 forced a different conversation.

Jessie Naor (05:39)

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would love to see a helicopter land in Central Park. I think the neighborhood would totally flip out. that's it. mean, you know, it's going to have something's going to have to give. You just can't add that much time, particularly with these, you know, for talking about medevac and emergency situations. This is this is not good news. So.

Guy B (06:03)

So I wonder if this type of thing, know, circumstances would require creativity.

Right. Right.

Jessie Naor (06:28)

All right, well, that's a serious story, and I have a really unserious, well, it's serious to some people, but I thought it was pretty funny when I started reading this. So, autonomous flying and single piloted aircraft crewing is upon us. An Airbus is trying to work through the kinks of how exactly this is gonna work for them. And their latest idea, because our pilots have physical needs, is that they're gonna add a toilet to the cockpit in the future, potentially.

so that any single pilot crew members don't ever have to leave the cockpit. They can always be alert and active in what they're doing. But obviously I think the pilot unions are gonna totally freak out about this. But I don't know, how do you solve this problem, Guy? If know one day we have single pilots in an Airbus 330, how's that gonna work?

Guy B (07:08)

Hey.

Yeah, look, that's, you know, again, same idea. I think about analogies, right? I think about the subway cars, right? Like at this point, do need to have somebody in there anymore? And so, you know, there's there's what do you need from a technical aspect? And then there's what do you need just psychologically, because nobody's going to get into a airplane or, you know, is society ready? I guess is the question. But I think specific to what you ask in terms of, you know, what comforts should you expect? You know,

Jessie Naor (07:39)

Yeah.

Guy B (07:46)

I can't tell how serious they are there, but human beings will always find a way to get into something.

Jessie Naor (07:52)

I was reading through apparently other options that they had come up with was well decided that weren't going to work for pilots was diapers, fluid and diet restriction and they deduced that none of those were acceptable which I was not surprised by.

Guy B (08:08)

Yeah, would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that test group that had to discuss that for however many weeks. Right. I'm sure there was a PowerPoint. Right. Right.

Jessie Naor (08:14)

probably hours and hours of endless discussion. I think, well, in the military they do. In the military, I think they do wear diapers in some cases, or they have in the past. And now I'm saying that because I heard it once, I'm not totally sure, but it's good for the Navy.

Guy B (08:33)

Right, right, right, right. It just shows it can be done. I guess, know, what I'd always say is, right, for every problem you solved, what new problems did you create? And having flown commercial plenty of times, the bathroom has been out of service. It has occurred. So I'm just curious, you know, what's all your unintended consequences from this solution? But, you know, again, I'm going to assume that the good people at Airbus had a good focus group and sorted all that out.

Jessie Naor (08:37)

God.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, mean, it's a joking matter, but it's also, I there are some serious issues with this. I mean, we've talked about terrorism. You know, when that pilot comes out of the cockpit, you know, to do what they need to do, I mean, that is, that's a risk area and that's an issue today. You know, right now the flight attendants bring the cart around, they block you, you know, from coming in. But it's also like, that's still a security issue that we even have that moment where they're not even on the flight deck. So it's an issue worth thinking about.

and how they will resolve this will be funny if nothing else.

Guy B (09:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. To be seen.

Jessie Naor (09:34)

To be seen, much to be seen. Can you imagine just being on the radio and having to answer? Okay, I'm not gonna go there, I'm not gonna gets weird real fast. Exactly. All right, we'll transition into some real news, something that probably is a little more going to happen soon, potentially. So the NTSB, they're always coming out with recommendations for the FAA to do.

Guy B (09:40)

This is the start of a Saturday Night Live. You've got the plot of a Saturday Night Live skit.

Jessie Naor (09:56)

The FAA doesn't always listen to those recommendations or enforce any of them, but they have started to do some of it. So the NTSB has recommended safety management systems for many, many years. FAA is now answering that call and is getting SMS required for part 135. They've also asked for flight data monitoring to come into the industry, but a new one that has just come out after a study of 116 fatal accidents.

over the last 12 years from 2010 to 2022, is that they're also recommending now that flight departments have a flight dispatcher. And this is not for single pilot operations or single aircraft operations. This is kind of meant for more robust operations. And a really good article came out from Kip Lau, a friend of mine, this week, and I was quoted in it. My opinion is I would love to see dispatchers, but I know that is a hot topic, and especially in the medevac space.

Guy B (10:54)

Yeah, and I think, look, unfortunately, like a lot in aviation, comes down to economics, right? Everything, every capability that we add,

Jessie Naor (10:48)

something that you guys have grappled with a lot more than I think private aviation has.

Guy B (11:02)

has a cost to it. And so, you know, some of these parts of the industry don't have great margins, and it matters, right? It's the economics of how to do it. I think things that are assured of because it's mandated by regulation or because it's truly proven to make a difference always find their way into the operation.

But look, I think especially you reference the medical world. Remember, the medical world was born out of this, born out of fire, police, EMS, right? Which there is no such thing as fire, EMS, and police without a good robust dispatching system. So this shouldn't be foreign. It's just a question of how to implement it in a rational way. And look, what I will tell you from my experience is I've seen phenomenal operations do great things, and I couldn't be happier with where SMS has evolved.

Jessie Naor (11:22)

.

Right.

Guy B (11:49)

but I'm always interested in how do you take it out of the corporate speak, out of the PowerPoint, out of the dispatcher? What does it mean to the folks in the field, that individual pilot, mechanic, and I would even say the crew that are on, whether that's a paramedic and a nurse that are their version of flight crew, or even, if I chartered an airplane, shouldn't I have a right to know the SMS calculation that you made? That transparency, and I understand some of the language is a bit,

Jessie Naor (12:03)

Okay.

Guy B (12:17)

specific to non-aviators. But I think the key to successful SMS is how the information has a two-way transparent conversation with the people in the aviation asset. And it feels like there might be opportunity to continue to improve there.

Jessie Naor (12:35)

Yeah, mean, SMS, it's trying to create a culture and sometimes, it's all the structure of making a culture, but it's still down to the operator to decide like what kind of culture I'm actually going to view in my organization. And I think this...

ties back to what they're saying about dispatch is that, look, I think you and I both know there's part 135 companies that are doing things really well, that have really solid operational control. And for those who aren't like ops people, know, operational control comes down to does the director of operations, have they actually authorized this exact mission to depart? Is there oversight of that process? Or is the pilot out there on their own, making their own calls saying, yeah, weather looks good to me, I guess I'll take off now.

That's, I think, a bit of a gray area that some FAA inspectors will really push and say, what's your operational control process? Like, how do pilots know that they're okay to depart? What if a change happens? But it doesn't always happen that way. I mean, we see a lot of pilots out there, even single pilots, making these choices, especially in the medevac space, where they got a patient in the back and they're under pressure. There has to be another layer of operational control that says you can or can't go.

I'm looking at everything that you're looking at and I agree that it's safe or I don't agree it's safe. And I don't think that that really happens in every operation today like it should. And that would be the point of dispatchers is to add that additional layer. But maybe the industry can figure it out without having to add a dispatcher and the cost there, but I'm not sure.

Guy B (13:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that's one component of it. And look, let's get crazy. Maybe there's enough data and we've collected a lot of data, we have a ton of experience, right? Does AI have a place in making this smarter? Is there a way to do it that really quantifies and helps you with at the end of the day, it's really decision making at the point of impact.

And I think to your point, Jess, a lot of programs do a great job at SMS, but it's different to do it 24-7-365. If this was a traditional nine-to-five business, I'd have no doubt we could all figure it out quick. But 24-7-365, I've seen programs that do it very well, but have moments that maybe it's not as good as it could be. But that's all it takes to have a bad mishap. You have to be... Aviation, as we all know, is very unforgiving, and the truth is you have to be perfect every time.

Jessie Naor (14:30)

Yeah.

All right.

huh.

one of the things I think too, it's this sense of pressure, you and that all comes from culture. It comes from just culture and knowing if you should be pressured or not. But I think people underestimate, especially when you've got a VIP passenger in the back who's pushing you to do something or not pushing you and you just feel obligated, you know, to get something done. Or, you know, it's a patient that has to be at the hospital. You know, I mean, that's...

Those are serious pressures that are on the pilot and we just can't leave them on their own to make those choices. I think that's fundamentally the culture of the industry that needs to change for everybody. And some people do it well, some people

But I think NTSB is trying to codify and make rules for culture that sometimes we just need to do internally. I don't know if even if you set a rule in place, is that actually gonna change it or not?

Guy B (15:39)

Yeah, I agree. And ,Jess, I have a unique perspective on this and that I had management kind of oversight of a single base. I've had it of a program with four bases and then obviously in a large operation with many. And my theories on this has shifted over time, right? I think, especially in the air medical space, pressure is discussed often. And I think we work very hard to separate

aviation decisions from the medical piece, meaning when a flight gets dispatched, we purposely don't say what kind of patient it is. It's a child, it's an airway issue. We purposely don't announce that over the radio or over the text pager so that it doesn't create undue influence. But what I have seen, and I think when it's a small enough operation, you know all the people, there's a trust, there's a communication, and that culture, you can build it and monitor it and maintain it.

I think there's a scale issue when it gets to a certain size that what I will tell you in the

of aviation, right, as soon as people hear that

Jessie Naor (16:39)

Yeah.

Guy B (16:36)

base is closing, well then the base next door changes their culture. And they're told not to, they're absolutely told not to, it's very clear, but they can't help it. You know, it's in everybody's back of their mind of I like my job and I don't wanna have to move. And there's not a lot of other, this type of operations in the town I live in. And so, you know, the implied pressure.

I think is something that is psychological and requires significant kind of management. And I think is an area we can still improve.

Jessie Naor (17:06)

Yeah, well, and even the pressures at home, you know, I got a new baby at home I gotta take care of I got you know, my wife's sick like it's just Yeah, that you have to beat that into people

Guy B (17:16)

Yeah.

Jessie Naor (17:17)

The mission does not always come first and you need to be aware of those factors and how they're influencing you and someone else needs to be there to back you up on it too. If that's your director of operations

or your base manager, whatever it is, I think if we don't start doing that more in 135, I think it's very likely we could see these dispatch regulations start to come down the pike because a lot of the accident reports talk about pressure and the pilots need to get somewhere or do something or whatever it was.

We got to release the valve on that. And I think there's some really good things learned from the Medevac space on how to do that in private aviation too. Maybe don't tell them that they have to get to this meeting or the deal is not going to be happening or something along those lines.

Guy B (17:55)

Right. You know, those repeat clients that come and you want to please that client. And I think that that does create it. again, I think that two things. One is that's where I'm going with, I think we need to communicate to clients and to others. Like people should know that that shouldn't be an aviation secret of the math that we do about what we will and won't accept is one. And the other is I still think there's more opportunity to talk about the incidents that occur.

Jessie Naor (18:01)

Thank you.

Right.

Guy B (18:22)

I think every instance that occurs in aviation should be the learning point that everybody studies and respects. I think more often than not, we have these narratives where we think, that's them, or I would never make that kind of mistake, or that doesn't apply to me. And I think it takes away just the opportunity to learn that at the end of the day, aviation is unforgiving. And so you really have to be relentless about every opportunity to do it the right

Jessie Naor (18:23)

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, and how many times have we read an accident report and go on, why the heck did they do that? You it's you weren't in their shoes. And it's very likely there were some myriad of pressures that caused them to make those.

Guy B (18:55)

Right. Right.

Jessie Naor (19:01)

poor decisions in a situation where people are very talented and shouldn't be making those poor decisions, but that's human nature.

Guy B (19:07)

Yeah, and I've heard excellent conversations where they say, think about that decision you made and thankfully it all worked out okay, but think about had it not, how that would read in an accident report. And I always like that perspective of you might have gotten away with it this time, but think about your reputation. I think about the end outcome, but also think about your reputation, everything that being an aviator means to you and how that would look in an accident report.

Jessie Naor (19:17)

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Guy B (19:34)

And I think that's a healthy way to observe some of those decisions.

Jessie Naor (19:38)

Yeah, it's kind of dark, but that's the world we live in. Yes. All right. Well, so some other things are coming up in business aviation. think, you know, SMS and regulations might get rolled back at some point if Trump and his group has anything to do with it. So they've said.

Guy B (19:42)

Right?

Jessie Naor (19:54)

But the other interesting thing that came out last week, now we don't know if this is Trump exaggerating or saying something that he's not actually going to do, but at the moment he is threatening a 25 % tariff on Canada and Mexico. There are a lot of aviation products made in Canada, especially, not to mention parts in Mexico. But we're talking bombardier.

Guy B (20:16)

Mm hmm.

Jessie Naor (20:18)

Whitney engines, Textron helicopters. If we're gonna have a 25 % tariff just on the assets, not to mention all the parts and components that go along with it, that could be pretty tough for the industry to swallow.

Guy B (20:32)

Yeah, that's a big one. And, know, again, to that similar point, right, the economics of aviation are already tough as it is. So trying to predict how does that look going forward? You know, I will say what does our experience show Trump in the past, his administration has been aviation friendly. So maybe some of this is bluster and maybe, you know, the application of it is different. But, you know, look, these are real issues to deal with.

But yeah, there's a lot to be seen here coming as the year turns, for sure.

Jessie Naor (21:05)

It will. mean, there is a solid point to be made here. Obviously, I'm American. I want everything to be made in America. And we know that aerospace design and manufacturing jobs are really, really good jobs. So, I mean, there's a point to this in pressuring some of that manufacturing to come back. You know, there's American aircraft being made just across the border at Canada. You know, maybe those should be made in...

Tennessee, Just a wink, wink, and a nod, nod there. But I think ultimately that could be the pressure. Whether or not he'll actually do it is doubtful, but it does seem like he's starting to ratchet that up.

Guy B (21:40)

the only thing I'd ask is from a timing standpoint, it's not been a good year at Boeing. So it's a little bit of an unusual time to say, let's bring it there. But listen, again, to that end, maybe these are the kinds of conversations that force the type of changes that those types of places would benefit from.

Jessie Naor (21:45)

Right.

Be done.

Guy B (22:01)

you know, I'm still optimistic.

Jessie Naor (22:04)

Yeah, look, I'm not sure I'm not that close to it to understand, but I have heard that, you know, a lot of these Canadian aerospace companies are heavily subsidized by the government. And that's why they're eating our lunch in a lot of cases. You know, there's just it's the cost is so much cheaper to do business there, although the cost is, but then also labor is more expensive. I think the labor laws in Canada are such such more complicated than ours are. I would love to see the math on that. And actually, if there's anyone listening that can be an expert on this, you're welcome to come back on the next show.

But like, why is it cheaper to do business in Canada building American products? You know, I wonder what the math works out on that. Is it government subsidies or more efficiency?

Guy B (22:45)

Right.

Jessie Naor (22:47)

Well, there was one analyst in this who doesn't think that Trump is going to target aerospace companies. He has been generally more friendly to aerospace and manufacturing. So we'll have to see how this all pans out. But definitely some ears were perking up last week. And actually, Bombardier's stock went down significantly after the announcement came out. So we'll have to see where this goes.

Guy B (23:09)

Well, and I do think we need to look four years plus into the future, right? And we think about companies in aviation today, but that next generation of companies are coming up, the Joby's the Archer. There's a lot of really exciting things happening in some of those companies too. So, their economics are different than say a Boeing or an Airbus or otherwise. So, the impact of this is real, but it'll be interesting. I feel like the next aviation is turning a corner.

Jessie Naor (23:20)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Guy B (23:38)

at a really interesting time. So hopefully at the end of day the question is, will the federal government create an environment that allows that innovation to move forward in a productive way and really keep American innovation at the forefront of aviation.

Jessie Naor (23:54)

Yeah, and actually it's not one of our main stories, but I did see the stocks of like, Joby and everybody else like pop up a lot last week because Trump came out with this announcement that we should be the leaders in eVTOL manufacturing and everyone was really excited about that. I still don't know how close we are, but it's good. I much rather it happened in United States than anywhere else. I can be selfish there.

Guy B (24:14)

Right. Right. And maybe it is a little bit aspirational, but you have to start somewhere, right? And, you know, it's not quite as aspirational as a moonshot. So there's no reason, you know, that it couldn't be, you know, the target to aim at. again, I think this is an example of where the government can create an environment that allows that to happen instead of being passive. And that's why the conversations around tariffs and these things matter, because that could be the game changer of these companies being successful or not.

Jessie Naor (24:42)

For sure. Yeah, but let's just not push it too far. We've already had enough supply chain issues to last us for another decade. So take it slow. Take it slow, please. All right. Well, so we have one more funny story of the week, but I just thought this was, first of all, really interesting. So the family of a notorious 20th century draft dodger is trying to get back their Wright Model B airplane from a museum.

Guy B (24:48)

you

Jessie Naor (25:07)

Philadelphia. I actually didn't realize that the Model B was the Wright Brothers most successful aircraft and there was only one known version left and that is the one in this museum. But the family is arguing that at first the museum said that there was a letter saying that they had the rights to the aircraft and then they couldn't find the letter.

and the museum said that there was like a verbal agreement between the donor and the museum, but it's very sketchy. And at this point, the family was like, no, we want our plane back. So what do you think about this? Do think they should get it back or who knows?

Guy B (25:44)

Yeah, I mean, look, how different is it than artwork or, you know, name the, I don't know, artifact. And I'll tell you, like, you know, when you think about aviation history, and at the end of the day, it is still a young industry, but it's such a critical part of American history. We just traveled cross country and we stopped at Dayton at the U.S. Air Force Museum.

And it's just it's incredible and when you see the arc of how aviation developed especially, know with young children to let them see that So I guess I have to answer to your question. I have the bias that I like to see these parts these critical parts of aviation I like to see them accessible to the public And and specifically from a learning education standpoint, I think the Air and Space Museum is specifically the Dulles operation they have is just phenomenal and

Jessie Naor (26:23)

Yeah. I would love that place.

Guy B (26:34)

And there's nothing better than watching, you know, again, young kids go through there and eyes wide open. So my bias is towards, I like these things in a museum. That said, I can't speak to the, you know, if anything, I don't understand why are they gonna put it in their backyard? Are they gonna put it on top of their house? It's like a rooftop ornament.

Jessie Naor (26:43)

Yes.

Well, I think they're willing to accept compensation. Who knows what that is? It's a pretty priceless thing. I mean, there's only one of them left and they're such a huge part of aviation history. But yeah, I think this probably comes down to there's no documentation, there's no provenance here, so pay up. We want this. Interesting character.

Guy B (27:10)

Right, Maybe we could find a compromise. Maybe we can find a compromise and just put a nice plaque with their name or make t-shirts or make something that they sell in museum shop. Maybe that's the compromise.

Jessie Naor (27:23)

Yeah, I don't know. think maybe the family money is like starting to run a little low and then things need to get some stuff back in. But I will say, like if it was my grandpa or someone, you know, and I didn't have any history or record that, you know, they'd actually donated this thing, I'd be asking the same questions, you know. And this is not the only museums that are going through this issue. I mean, they've had problems with like Egyptian artifacts. You know, people bringing things in from the Middle East that didn't have any paperwork and were just kind of scuttled in. Like museums are a lot more...

Guy B (27:29)

come up with a creative idea.

Jessie Naor (27:53)

I think on the burner these days with like, what, where's your documentation? Like, is this really, is this really yours? How did you get this?

Guy B (27:56)

Yeah.

Right, right. No, for sure.

Jessie Naor (28:04)

But what a character. The man's name was Bergdoll. He was a playboy of the Eastern seaboard. He was named, he was a draft dodger in World War I, was imprisoned for draft dodging in the 20s. He later escaped from the guards, fled to Europe, and set up a house in Germany. And this was the time in which the rights to that aircraft were given to the museum was when he was a fugitive in Germany. So that's the other layer to this is...

How could he have really gotten consent that the museum could have this aircraft at the time if he was gallivanting and off somewhere in Germany?

Guy B (28:41)

But I will say what a fascinating life, right? I think what it takes, you you think about it, it should be so much easier to travel to these places and have your adventures, but you you hear stories like that, I mean, what a fascinating life. What museum is it at now?

Jessie Naor (28:55)

In Philadelphia at the Franklin Institute, believe. Surprise you don't know you're a former Philadelphian.

Guy B (28:59)

wow. Okay.

I am and I can think of the plane there so I wonder if it's the one that's right out front there. I'd have to look at that closer. But I mean, and I will tell you, Franklin Institute's incredible. Incredible. It's a really cool mix of all kinds of topics. But aviation is front and center there. So look, what I could say is I'm sure they are being respectful and doing something nice with it as it stands. hopefully that works out for them.

Jessie Naor (29:21)

Very cool.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. All right, folks. So with that, we're going to wrap up the pod today. We

to keep things short and sweet on your morning commute. Comments and suggestions on what we should cover next are always welcome. We look forward to talking with you, and we'll see you next time on the VIP seat.