Is flying safe? Yes, but..

Transcript:

Jessie Naor (00:00) All right, good morning and welcome to the VIP seat. Today is February 20th and our top stories today include how the last G650 has officially rolled off the line and what's going on at the FAA right now in terms of layoffs and other things. So your hosts today include yours truly, Jessie Naor as always, and our co-host today is Tim Wade. Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Wade (00:20) So happy to be here and to be labeled as co-host. That's outstanding. Thank you so much for having me.

Jessie Naor (00:25) Awesome. Alright folks, sit back, up, and let's take off.

Alright, Tim. So excited to have you here today. You're a safety expert and in private aviation specifically and in other areas as well. But I think a lot of people are a little uncomfortable these days. We've had some incidents. Aviation is on the forefront of everybody's mind right now. And we're not going to speculate about crashes. That's not what we do here. We're business aviation show. But, you know, I do want to take some time to kind of talk about, you know, how safe is the industry? What do people need to know? Because

Yes, we're getting a lot of highlights and a lot of focus on our space right now, but still, statistically speaking, there's some pretty big differences from driving your car versus getting in an airplane.

Tim Wade (01:07) Mm-hmm.

You know, I think that it shows a great deal just how safe aviation is and how unlikely these incidents are to happen when you look at how much of it is in the media. You have one incident. It's tragic. You know, every incident we've had this year has been tragic and it's tough to actually watch. But when you look at it, when you take a step back and you see how many media outlets pick it up, they don't pick up a fatal car accident. You don't hear about a fatal car accident.

from LA, you don't hear about it here in Cleveland. You don't hear about that because it happens all the time. Aviation incidents like this do not. And that speaks so much to how safe the environment truly is. You know, these incidents don't represent the industry any more than my opinion here today represents the industry. It's a small piece of it. We can't waste that piece, though. Every incident we have, every risk assessment we do, every incident we log, every hazard report that comes through.

You got to take the data that's in these items and you need to utilize it for good. You need to talk about it. You need to continue talking about it. You need to learn from it. You need to improve from it, but you cannot let it become the face of the industry. And I think a lot of media outlets and I think a lot of armchair quarterbacks are trying to do that with a lot of these. They're trying to say that aviation is broken, that the system's broken. It's not. You know, I hate to reference the Swiss cheese model, but

in these incidents we've seen, that's essentially what it is. A lot of things lined up perfectly for this to happen. And like I said, it's tragic, but the industry is not broken in general because as this one incident was happening the other day, 44,000 other non-incidental aircraft were flying just fine over US airspace, not to mention probably over 100,000 globally at the time. So.

Yes, we need to learn from these. Yes, we need to really dig into them, but we cannot let it become the face of the industry as we see it,

Jessie Naor (03:14) Yeah, and I think too, it's like human and media nature. It's like when you see the train crash, you're like, gosh, it's fascinating, let's look at it. Even though it's horrible, that's just human nature is to highlight these things and look at these things. But yeah, I started looking at the statistics because I wanted to share with people, okay, what are the actual numbers here? We can say, it's safe, it's safe, but statistically, we have information. So when you look at, and a lot of people like to compare miles,

Tim Wade (03:33) Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (03:42) I like to compare hours, the amount of time that you're sitting in an airplane versus the amount of time you're sitting in a car. I like to use those as the comparison tool for safety and these accident rates. But some people like to use miles, which that's their choice. So when you're looking at commercial airlines, the fatal accident rate today is 0.0002 for every 100,000 hours.

Tim Wade (03:44) Mm-hmm.

There you go.

Jessie Naor (04:06) compare that to driving rates, it's .0033. So that means driving your car is functionally 17 times riskier than stepping on an airplane. So I think those numbers speak for themselves. Yes, I'm sure the numbers will change slightly given what's happened this year, but still, I'm happy to jump on a Delta flight or American flight all day long before even driving down I-695 heading to DC.

Tim Wade (04:17) Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

You know, that's a it's a great point. And especially when you look at how often do you fly compared to how often do you drive? You know, what is your personal risk tolerance? Because to us who were in aviation and we fly often and we see this every single day, our risk tolerance is a lot higher. We understand this. We understand the systems in place for this. But your grandmother who might fly once every two years to the family reunion, her risk tolerance is going to be a lot lower. It's going to be a lot

more difficult for her to digest that. And unfortunately, that's the general public that's watching all these news stories right now. And they're not really bringing in a lot of the people who live it every day. It's the correspondent who might have had an aviation background 18 years ago. It's like, well, no, you need to go talk to the people on the forefront. You need to talk to the ones that are actually living it every day like you

Jessie Naor (05:18) Yeah, and two, think people don't always understand, and I bring this up a lot, know, flying on an airline, part 121, those are statistics I was referencing before, that is the safest mode of travel. Now, we look at 135, we look at 91, the numbers are hard to separate, first of all, because if you put all of general aviation into one bucket, which includes someone flying power line surveys, someone doing medevac stuff, those numbers are worse.

But you really have to get down into what kind of the operation is it, what kind of aircraft is it, a multi-engine aircraft with someone who's running an SMS system or a FOQA or anything else, that's an entirely different risk profile of flying and arguably very similar to commercial flying, I'd say.

Tim Wade (06:05) There is a wide range. Once you get out of the 121 world, which how many 121 certificates are truly in the United States? Not that many. And then you hit how many 135 and 91 certificates you see throughout the United States. You're going to go from your big players, NetJets and FlexJet, all the way down to Jimmy's Scenic Tours, where he's diving a 172 into the Grand Canyon. And there's a such a wide scope.

Jessie Naor (06:13) you

Tim Wade (06:30) There's such a wide scope of safety, risk, you you name it. And so it's really hard to dial in the numbers. And I hear people often say, well, it's not a 135, it's more of a 134 and a half. And you know, and there are some sketchy operations out there. You were just talking the other day about, you know, illegal charter and things like that that are out there. There's a lot of issues right now in business aviation in general because it is such a wide swath, which is why when

You are choosing your charter operator, your broker, who you're truly going with. You got to do your research. You know, do they have a background where they've built respect and responsibility throughout the industry, or did they just pop a certificate last year and they've flown a couple hours and they're hoping for the best? It's not to say the startups are bad, but they haven't built that reputation yet.

Jessie Naor (07:19) Yeah, and I think too consumers just don't understand. know, they say, the FAA approved them. So they're good to go. I'm like, well, no, you know, the, the, the regulatory approach to the air carriers, you know, the Deltas and everybody else is a very, very different level of oversight than 135 and particularly 91. So yeah, you have to have, it's just one of those situations where you need an expert, for anyone, flying in these, in these aircraft, you have to have somebody who's got an aviation safety background helping you.

Tim Wade (07:26) You

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (07:46) decide who you're going to fly with because it's just too nuanced and complicated for almost anyone out there to understand that's not in our space.

Tim Wade (07:46) Mm-hmm.

Exactly. The FAA reps are, you they have certificates assigned to them based on size. So Delta probably has, you know, probably 30, 40 FAA reps assigned to them, directly, yet you're going to have, one FAA rep who might be overseeing multiple certificates who are much smaller operators. It's just different oversight that you're seeing.

Jessie Naor (08:11) Yeah, and I would say too, you fly with someone like FlexJet, you you have an entire safety team that's, mean, you you guys have groups of people that that's their whole job all day long, you know, versus mom and pop shop who may not have that. But not saying that that person's not safe, but there are just different levels of risk mitigation and processes. And you should know that as a flyer in this space.

Tim Wade (08:33) And you pay for that as you choose who you're operating with. And like you mentioned, I'm with Flexjet I absolutely love the safety team we work with because we have looked at the risk, not just within our own organization, but in the industry. Where is the risk line? You know, we need to put our money where the risk is and not just, you know, safety at all costs. I hate it when people do that. You know, you see a hallway with 15 AEDs on the wall. like, how much cardiac risk does your organization have? It's like, put your money where the risk is.

put it into the FDM programs, put it into your SMS programs, put it into your, you know, your risk mitigation for your incidents coming through. That's where it should be. And so we have built our team based on what is the risk that we're facing today. And that team is going to shift. It's going to change over the years as the risks to our organization does as well.

Jessie Naor (09:21) Yeah. And so many times, I'm a former operator too, I find that it's not even cost, it's culture. You know, it's what is the approach, how does management feel about risk, you know, how does the team feel about reporting risk, you know, so much of it is imbibing that culture in the organization. And that's just stuff you can't even see on an audit. That's just something that you either have or you don't.

Tim Wade (09:42) Exactly. And it takes a lot to build that up. I always tell our new hires, I can't just tell you to trust the safety team, you need to earn you need to build that trust, I need to earn it from you. I need to show you that the data you're trusting me with, which when it comes to an incident or hazard, you are trusting me with the most sensitive of data outside of HR, obviously, but

I need to build that trust. need to earn it for you. And over time, you will see the reporting skyrocket once people truly see how the safety teams using your data, and they're not out to get you. They're not acting like the safety cops are actually using it to improve the organization overall.

Jessie Naor (10:17) Yeah. Well, speaking of culture, something interesting is happening at the FAA. I'm hearing like two different sides of this coin. There are articles that are saying, my gosh, FAA, firings are happening and the system is collapsing. And then I'm hearing other things like, know, Sean Duffy, the head of the DOT said, it's like a hundred people, they're not safety sensitive functions, but there are terminations happening at the FAA right now. We're still trying to figure out what they are.

but I don't think it's gonna be the end of this and we'll see what happens.

Tim Wade (10:47) I think what you just said previously about culture, that's gonna really show through here. Maybe they're not safety sensitive. Maybe they have nothing to do with safety sense. Maybe they're just the guys that order the coffee. But then again, don't you want your air traffic controllers to be awake? They need coffee to do that. So just to say somebody is not safety sensitive does not mean they're not in a support role that is completely integral to that safety sensitive line. I am not safety sensitive myself.

Jessie Naor (11:02) Hahaha

Tim Wade (11:13) But if I stop tracking hazards and risk mitigation, I really don't know where our safety sensitive line is going to be pushed at that point. who knows who is actually being let go from the FAA. I have seen multiple different articles and depending on what side of the news agency you're reading is, you know, how drastic this truly is. But all I know is

It has been a rough year so far in the media, especially for aviation. So just hearing that the FAA is letting anybody go is difficult to swallow. It's difficult to read that. And we're all one big family in aviation. So it's difficult to see somebody in our family being let go. But I would really hope that there's a lot of risk management going on with the decisions that they're making.

Jessie Naor (11:58) Yeah, so one, and this was unconfirmed, it was a controller that was speaking off the record. But what they said was most of the workers are including personnel hired for FAA radar, landing and navigation, aid maintenance. So, you know, we need those systems to work. would, I don't understand. I mean, but maybe there are systems that they're taking out of service. mean, Lord knows we have a lot of really old technology out there in our aviation system. So.

Tim Wade (12:15) Really?

Jessie Naor (12:25) I don't know, but it doesn't seem like controllers at least.

Tim Wade (12:28) Well, thankfully for that, but I would always wonder, know, if these are, like you said, old systems that are maybe coming offline, why are we not taking the time to build up those positions into the newer technology? You know, we saw it in when I was in the army, I was only in for six years, but I was in during a very critical period as we were transitioning a lot of aviation technology on the Apaches and just what was working in Afghanistan and not working in Afghanistan.

Jessie Naor (12:40) Mm-hmm.

Tim Wade (12:53) And I found that the best technicians were the ones who were the legacy technicians who we sent back to school and got new knowledge because then they knew what didn't work with the old stuff and they could see the improvements on the new stuff. And they almost had this trust in the new products that weren't that wasn't really there for the people who just coming online. They didn't have that that knowledge behind it. So if that's it, I would really hope that we're retaining some of those legacy people because your best mentors are the ones who have been in the trenches before moving forward.

So yeah, it's gonna be very interesting to see where these, where all these reductions come from and if it's actually going to impact and be helpful.

Jessie Naor (13:31) Yeah, I do want to see them get into the air traffic control system though. I would say I studied air traffic control. was originally my plan in aviation was to be a controller. And even at the time of my training, which is, 15 years ago, they were still using like the blocks and strips to control, you know, what was on what. And I think it's less used now, but it's still in use. And I'm like, what is going on? Like our cars can drive themselves and controllers are still using pieces of paper on a stack, like to figure out like who's coming.

Tim Wade (13:45) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I was

Jessie Naor (13:59) We need to work on it.

Tim Wade (13:59) just in a tower like two or three weeks ago. And that was my first thought was, how are we using such antiquated technology? And then the guy did something amazing. He used the microphone to allow a snowplow onto the runway. He set the microphone down and he took a strip that said truck on runway and he set it right on top of his microphone. I said, what are you doing there? He goes, risk mitigation right there. I'm like.

That's outstanding because number one, you cannot grab the microphone without that. But then in the back of my head, I'm like, well, what happens when you sneeze and you knock that off? You don't realize it. I mean, it's not the best fail safe, but literally dropping a tag that says truck on runway on top of your microphone that might save you from clearing someone to land while there's a truck on the runway.

Jessie Naor (14:40) Yeah, well, and that is part of the "strip" system. It's kind of like giving you a tactile thing associated with the actions that you're doing, which helps your brain. But man, think, you know, the collision systems, avoidance systems, mean, routing, all that stuff could just be so much better handled by technology and a controller watching it just to go, yeah, it looks good, you know. And there are some...

Tim Wade (14:45) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It would look terrible on a brief

if you said, hey, we have millions of dollars in technology here. And it's like, well, the accident came down to he didn't put the strip of paper on the microphone. It's like, okay, you don't have any other mitigation in place other than that strip of paper.

Jessie Naor (15:15) Yeah, and that even came out, you know, like we still don't know what happened completely with the American Airlines crash, but part of what they came out was that the radar system didn't have the correct altitude because of the technology that they were using. like we know that exists, but we, and we have better technology, but it's not equipped on every airplane or every tower. You know, those are, those are pieces I hope come out of this, regardless of what the actual causes were of the crash.

Tim Wade (15:26) Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (15:41) We know that we have a problem with our technology. We know it needs upgrades. Maybe this is at least an impetus to get Congress to give more funding for better tools.

Tim Wade (15:49) Mm-hmm.

Exactly. The tools are out there. Some airports have them, some airports don't. And I think we need a wide sweep of where's our more high risk airports. You you look at from the business aviation side, Teterboro needs significant upgrades to checkpoints, waypoints, different runway structures. That is a high risk airport. And it's mainly high risk because of how much it's used. And you look at all these other major commercial airports in the United States.

Some have the technology, some don't. There needs to be a better baseline of where everyone is at this line. If you exceed the line, great, but at least we're all on the same playing field of what we consider to be the best baseline of technology we need at our airports.

Jessie Naor (16:27) Yeah, let's spend some money, let's reduce the red tape and get some new tech in there. That's a, everyone can agree with that. All right, well, speaking of innovations, the electric aviation industry is not having good luck lately. It seems like since November, there have been multiple companies declaring bankruptcy. The latest one this week is Eviation. It has laid off most of its employees. It's paused its Alice aircraft, which I didn't realize.

Tim Wade (16:30) Amen to that.

Jessie Naor (16:54) how much they had in pre-orders. They had $5 billion in customer orders. They were supposed to go into service in 2027, but it looks like that's not happening or they're gonna have to restructure and maybe get some new funding.

Tim Wade (17:05) I remember walking through BACE this past year in Las Vegas and walking past the Lilium booth and thinking, wow, this thing looks amazing. Walking out into the hallway after just been in the booth and seeing that they had filed for bankruptcy online. I'm like, what? I was just standing over there. They looked to be doing okay. They're still talking to people. And then it was.

Jessie Naor (17:26) Yeah.

Tim Wade (17:28) It was a good feeling when I think just a few months later in December that they announced, hey, we've got a new investor. doing great. And then as I was checking this article that you're speaking of to see what we're going to be talking about today, Lilium popped up again that they are once again, that they are going to be going out of business. I think there was just such a big push for operators and investors had the capital.

They didn't know who to invest in because there were so many that just came out in a couple years ago. So everybody just had this big influx of cash. When had we narrowed it down to just like two or three that were really gonna be it? And you you had no idea who those two or three were gonna be. I don't think we would see so many going out of business after getting so close to the finish line. Because Lilium was very close to the finish line. From what I'm seeing, Eviation was very close to the finish line.

almost getting ready to start filling orders, getting certified, things like that. there's just a couple that are still hanging on. Archer comes to mind and there's a few other air taxis that are coming to mind. You got to wonder, did we have way too many starters and way too much cash influx right off the bat? And then it just ran out when we weren't able to get them across the finish line.

Jessie Naor (18:29) Okay.

Yeah, think investors are impatient. You know, I think they understood, okay, we're trying to catch a unicorn here. But I think enough time has gone by where they said, okay, this is not the expected horizon that we thought it was going to be. You know, if it's not five to seven years after you've started to dump money in something, they start to get really anxious and frustrated. And I think I think that's where we're at. There's still some that are hanging on and continue to pull things in.

Tim Wade (18:49) Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (19:00) but it's getting more more expensive for them. They're giving away certain preferred shares or they're paying higher interest rates. And we're still, we just still don't know when. The certification is still a big question mark. But yeah, I Lilliam, Volocopter, Airbus has discontinued its program. Rolls Royce has discontinued its program. There's a lot of people going.

Tim Wade (19:10) Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (19:21) Okay, we're gonna just change gears right now and focus on something else and hope that somebody else is the first mover here because it's getting too expensive for us.

Tim Wade (19:25) Mm-hmm.

And I think people also had a very unrealistic expectation of when this was to come out. I mean, you look at Gulfstream announcing the G700 back years ago, and understandably COVID played a huge role in that, but it's just now hitting operators. That's a big chunk of time. This isn't just a new model. It's not even just a new company. This is brand new technology, new style, new everything.

You could almost call it a brand new industry at this point. That takes a lot of time to build this up. I just don't think and you were right, these investors put a lot of capital up and they just didn't have the time to let it sit there. And I think they had an unrealistic expectation that it was going to be like a new model. And it's really not. You're investing in the industry starting up, not necessarily that one specific aircraft starting up.

Jessie Naor (20:16) Yeah, and this goes into our next conversation and I'm realizing like actually how associated this is to the political winds is obviously shifted. You know, there was this huge excitement to electrify everything, you know, we've really started to get some critical mass of electric vehicles, but those even have taken a step back at this point. So everybody's and I do wonder how much is just the political influence of saying, well, OK, we don't care as much about the green.

Tim Wade (20:29) Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (20:42) or the sustainability, we need to meet certain metrics first before we go there. But that dovetails into the FAA is gonna continue to go to the ICAO emissions meetings. Those have been going on for multiple years now. And there was an email that went out earlier this month that said that they're not going, apparently that was some rogue employee at the FAA that said that they're not going to these meetings, but they are. So there is still some participation in.

sustainability and Corsia and all the other programs in Europe. But we'll have to see what happens with all that too.

Tim Wade (21:13) Well, sustainability and SAF and I think a lot of people, even including the regulators, used it as a buzzword. It was the SMS of 2019 and 2020. It was how we looked at DEI. was how we looked at every of these buzz programs to get focus on it, but then it dies off when the real work is really set to be done. So with SAF, it's an amazing program.

But if you don't have the regulatory backing and you don't have the FAA fully understanding what they're getting involved in, it doesn't matter. You need the regulation or else nobody's gonna do it because why would you spend extra money if I don't have to? And they're just not going to do it. You have to care about it first, of course, but unless someone's actually holding you to the fire, not many people are really gonna go through with this. So I'm glad to see that the FAA is truly actually getting involved with this. And I hope they, as so many has not been pushed across the finish line, I hope they truly push this one across the finish line because

This is one of the programs that I've seen when used correctly can do a lot of good. And it can show a lot of good light on aviation. I don't know how many times we come out and we say, hey, we're involved in business aviation. And the first thing you hear is, well, your carbon footprint is huge. And it's like, well, we're not Delta flying an MD-88 as they were just a few years ago, because.

There's a big difference in the brand new aircraft that a lot of the operators are utilizing, which can actually hold sustainable aviation fuel. Your customers can pay to offset their carbon footprint. We have companies like 4air that are actually tracking all of this stuff and letting the operators know what they're able to do. So it's an amazing part of the industry if people are willing to buy into it and actually support it.

Jessie Naor (22:49) Yeah, and look, the U.S. is involved in it. The committee that they're going to soon is the Committee on Aviation Environmental Protection. They're the ones who are working on the carbon offsetting and reduction scheme, CORSIA. That's what a lot of people are talking about in Europe. It's still moving forward. Even though the political winds have kind of changed in the United States, these things are going to be impacting the manufacturers, like you said. A couple years ago, there were some aircraft that were taken out of service because, yeah, they're not efficient. They're guzzling fuel.

emitting a whole bunch of stuff that we don't want to the atmosphere and we have better technology. So it is time to phase out some of this. So I think even though maybe in America, you know, we're not feeling that as much right now politically, it's still happening in Europe and they're going to be setting design standards that are going to impact manufacturers because it's not like we're just operating American planes in America. They're getting exported all over the world.

Tim Wade (23:32) Mm-hmm.

Exactly. There's political discourse in America, are sure?

Jessie Naor (23:41) have idea what you're talking about. Something about Canada, Greenland, I don't know. But it'll be interesting. I posted on LinkedIn this week, but I was looking at what we have put into SAF in grants. Like DOGE's doing the investigation. like, let me investigate SAF and what's going on over there. So I looked into it and the Biden administration had announced $300 million in grants to go out last year in August. Now when you go to the website and you try to click on the link that tells you what,

Tim Wade (23:43) I have...

Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (24:04) The grant is, it's a 404 error. It doesn't exist anymore.

Tim Wade (24:08) the political discourse is really throwing a lot of things off right now. I just hate politics at this point, you know, I would love to be in an era where the letters at the end of your name, when you're in Congress, do not matter towards your vote, you know, you vote how your heart is you vote where, where how you've been raised, you vote with with your morality, and not just the fact that you're a democrat or republican.

You know, I was always raised with, doesn't matter if you're Democrat or Republican, you believe what you believe and that's how you speak for yourself on this. And a lot of this is starting to impact so many things, even in aviation, even in all these wonderful industries we have. yeah, it's just disheartening that so many good programs and projects that we were excited for years ago can be thrown off so quickly.

just because there's a political change in the climate. And it's like, think you would think some of these doesn't matter what side of the line you're on. Everyone could focus for the greater good of a country. But then again, everyone has a different opinion and a different view of what is truly the greater good for a company or a country or an organization.

Jessie Naor (25:10) Yeah, and I think, okay, some of this is typical, you know, I think the pace is not typical. The pace of change is extreme. But I mean, this does happen when new presidents come into office, you know, they change directives, the vision is shifted, not typically this quick. So I think everyone's spinning and like, okay, where do we go? What's what? How's this happening? I'm hoping that will start to subside, you know, within six months, everyone will kind of have an understanding of, okay, these are...

Tim Wade (25:16) No.

Jessie Naor (25:38) these are the areas that we're going, these are the non-starters, you know, that if lobbyists are trying to come in with something like that's not gonna happen, you know, so once we get the look at what that looks like, I think it'll be better, but yeah, it's gonna be a tumultuous couple months for now, so I'd hold off on any big decisions on any of these areas, because who knows where we're going.

Tim Wade (25:42) Mm-hmm.

Ultimately, you hope that the next view of anybody in a political party is just one that builds trust. Like we talked about earlier with the safety team. I want to let the actions of our safety team build the trust for us. And I think that's what the government needs to be doing is let your actions be what builds the trust in the government or else it's always going to have political discourse for the next foreseeable future.

Jessie Naor (26:19) But some of those basics, I mean, you let's get rid of old technology, that makes sense. I don't know if SAF is the solution to everything. don't know if it is. I won't say I don't think it is, but I don't know if it is. I don't know enough about it to really say one way or the other. But let's just at least make sure we're spending our money wisely and we are moving forward because just stopping is not an option. But let's just move forward smartly and in a way that focuses on technology and not just dumping stuff into something that doesn't make sense.

Tim Wade (26:31) Mm-hmm.

I would definitely say that SAF is at least a step in the right direction. Maybe it's not the end all be all maybe it's not the goal, but it is bringing us out of a different time where we didn't really care about that sort of thing. It was one of the big first initial steps for getting us out of like I said, the MD 88 and all the the old gas guzzlers and there are amazing airplanes or rocket ships, you know, but it moved us out of that and into at least

Jessie Naor (27:06) Mm-hmm.

Tim Wade (27:14) you know, a line a sight of where we could be going. Yeah, like I said, it might not be the finish line, but at least it's good step in the right direction.

Jessie Naor (27:20) Yeah, look, if it takes you 30 minutes more to get somewhere and you burn 40 % less fuel, that's a good idea. That works. That works.

Tim Wade (27:26) That's pretty good. I'd say it's good. Just fly

higher. That's why all these wonderful aircraft can fly up into the fifties. We're good.

Jessie Naor (27:34) There

we go, fuel efficient. It's good for the operator, it's good for the environment too. It's all good. Well speaking of, I think the G650 was the first one to fly a SAF flight all on its own. And unfortunately, I mean we knew it was coming, but the last G650 has officially rolled off the line and is headed for completion in Wisconsin. So it's the end of the era for the beautiful G650, unfortunately.

Tim Wade (27:38) There you go.

Well, I am so happy that working at FlexJet, I have plenty of these in the fleet and I get to see them quite often throughout our facility. So it is bittersweet that the last one is rolling off the line. I'm super excited that they didn't just end the era. Like when you look at the 747 coming to an end, you're like, well, I sorry, the 777 is just not as sexy as the 747. That was the queen. That was that was what everyone looked at. When you think aviation, you thought of that gorgeous, gorgeous aircraft.

Jessie Naor (28:20) That's good.

Tim Wade (28:27) At least with the 650, they're upgrading it into the 700 and along the same lines, but from what I've seen with the 700, oh my goodness, it is, it is revolutionary. They have so many new incredible items. It's bigger. as a ground safety guy, I'm like, well, where are we shoving this thing? Because it's like, it's who's got the hangar for that. So but yes, it was bittersweet to see that the 650 was was coming to a close because it is truly

Jessie Naor (28:48) Sorry.

Tim Wade (28:54) It's a flagship of so many fleets right now. And it just, looks incredible. Just those iconic Gulfstream windows really stand out.

Jessie Naor (28:57) them.

Well, I think too, when you're thinking about, you know, like what's the best of the best in the industry, you know, like, okay, yeah, maybe you can talk about a BBJ or something, like it's always like, G650, what's the most expensive G650? What's the coolest G650? So we'll just have to change our terminology. It'll be a 700 or 800 soon. But man, I mean, it was amazing. It has flown a million flight hours thus far. Achieved the Guinness World Record book for the fastest ever circumnavigation of the earth.

Tim Wade (29:08) Mm-hmm.

Jessie Naor (29:28) Around the North and South Poles, G800 hopefully end of next year will be getting to take a look at.

Tim Wade (29:34) There we go. My favorite one so far and I got a plug Flexjet it just a little bit. We did a project with Bentley and we have one in our fleet that is not the orange chameleon paint going by, but it has a green chameleon paint stripe going up the side because it matches the Bentley Bacalar vehicle and the seats out of the car are the same type of seats that we put in the aircraft designed the same way.

I mean, there's just there's just an amazing luxury factor to the 650s and just what they have designed there in the incredible template that you have a ton of room in that thing to design it as your own. And that's why I love that Flexjet showed is done with the 650s and our fleet. And like I said, it's wonderful to walk out in the hangar and see those all the time.

Jessie Naor (30:13) Yeah, well, and if Gulfstream keeps up what it usually does, I will think too, you know, this part support, the ability to get service and parts on these aircraft will continue for a long time to come because it's been a very popular plane. I don't know how many are out there, but definitely one at the top.

Tim Wade (30:29) We still see the old school 280s every once in a while. So you still see plenty of the older Gulf streams still doing well on the runways. Don't, not too sure what the support program is for those. But yeah, I agree with you there. It's definitely going to be supported and loved for a long, time.

Jessie Naor (30:31) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Alright, well, goodbye Gulfstream. well, G650 at least, not Gulfstream in general. But we'll wrap up the pod today. We like to keep everything short and sweet for your morning commute. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe so we can keep bringing you awesome guests like Tim. Comments and suggestions on what we should cover next are always welcome. And we'll see you next time on the VIP seat.

Tim Wade (31:03) Take care everybody.