Infamous Jet Tracker Banned; FAA Replacing Meteorologists with Tech

Transcript:

Jessie Naor (00:00)

Good morning and welcome to the VIP seat. In today's top stories, we're talking about the scary news in the eVTOL industry and how the FAA's decision to replace meteorologists is frightening some experts. Happy Halloween. Welcome to the podcast, Jordan Scales. I'm your host, Jessie Naor and today we've got Jordan. Welcome.

Jordan Scales (00:18)

Thank you, Jessie. It's a pleasure to be here. And I wish we had a full length camera. I've got my Halloween socks on today, so I'm being festive.

Jessie Naor (00:24)

Yeah, I did think about maybe putting a costume on and like this is a serious business show. need to like, you know, be serious.

Jordan Scales (00:31)

I'm gonna toss my cap out of the

Jessie Naor (00:36)

Alright folks, sit back, buckle up, and let's take

Alright Jordan, so you were at NBAA last week. Actually, I missed it. It's my first time missing it in many, many years. So how was the show? What was going on over there?

Jordan Scales (00:57)

I was actually pretty impressed by this year's show. I heard other people say, kind of compared to last year's show, you know, we're all aware of the reduced footprint at the static display. But honestly, walking on the floor of this show, and I shared this sentiment with other people, it felt special. Everyone was very elated. There was tons of energy.

I likened the energy of this show to that of like schedules and dispatchers. Like S and D is always super high energy. Everyone's super positive where at BACE tends to be a little bit more kind of buttoned up. But this, the energy was really electric this year. there was almost a benefit to having a reduced footprint at the static because it, it funneled more people to the convention hall.

Jessie Naor (01:40)

Hmm.

Jordan Scales (01:40)

And so, I mean, the convention hall just seemed packed and condensing the show into just one wing of the convention center as opposed to having it in two. One was just much easier from a navigation standpoint. But then once again, having everyone in one central location, I thought it was a really great show. All of the presentations were awesome. know, having these...

EVTOL aircraft on the floor, I think, gave kind of a unique spin to the collection of aircraft that are typically there. We saw some new vendors that were there. Overall, I thought it was really, really awesome. Selfishly on, I'm now the chairman of NBAA's Young Professional Council, and we had a stunning young professional turnout this year. We actually had our highest attendance ever at any, at any, know, YoPro kickoff event.

Jessie Naor (02:14)

.

Jordan Scales (02:31)

I think our previous, we had about 200 people was like our highest grossing at our previous events and we had over 400 this year. So we almost doubled like the, largest number of attendees at our YoPro Happy Hour event. So personally, that was phenomenal. Me having a huge kind of transition in my chair, chairship, chair.

Jessie Naor (02:41)

Wow.

Jordan Scales (02:56)

chair position on the council. It was awesome getting to be at the helm and watch all this. personally, was tons of great energy that I saw from my personal projects, but then just from everyone that attended the show. Everyone was super elated and everyone had really positive things to say about how this year is going to close.

Jessie Naor (03:15)

That's awesome. Yeah, you guys are doing such a great job with the YoPro Council. mean, it's just such an active organization and you guys all seem so positive and excited about bringing people in. And that's wonderful to see in our industry because I think when I first got into the industry, it was a lot of

Who are you? I don't want to talk to you. Please, please talk to me, someone. Let me be part of what's going on. I had to work my way through that, but you guys are really extending this arm out, which is very cool and very beneficial for our organizations to bring young folks in.

Jordan Scales (03:46)

And there's a real turning of the tide too, because I think when the movement started, and we just celebrated our 10 year anniversary of YoPro. So that was kind of momentous in itself. And I think that the conception of this group, it created a bit of a divide, like whenever you're segmenting a certain portion of the work population. there wasn't much communication between the YoPro group and the more senior professionals.

Jessie Naor (04:13)

.

Jordan Scales (04:13)

the more senior professionals almost, it seemed as though they took a stance to not want to be included, let us have our space, they have their space. But year over year, we are seeing more bridging of the gap, which is really awesome. There is more inclusion. Those who don't, aren't Yo Pros by definition, want to attend the events and they want to capture this lightning in the bottle that we have. we, and that's,

Part of the reason why we created this space as well, you know, was to create a voice for this population and we're being heard. And so it's awesome to see how far we've come and I'm excited for what's ahead of us.

Jessie Naor (04:53)

That's awesome. Yeah, I think, you know, if you're anyone who's trying to recruit top talent and motivated people that have great personalities, you should get to a YoPro event because they are there and they're leaders. Cool. Well, speaking of, you know, what's going on in the industry and the shows and people being inclusive, Jack Sweeney, the infamous jet tracker from X and Twitter and wherever else he was posting it.

Jordan Scales (05:03)

It's there.

Jessie Naor (05:21)

has officially been shut down. This has been in the news for many, many years. He was tracking Elon. He was like semi-bribing Elon Musk at one point, and then Taylor Swift said she was fearful for her safety from this guy tracking her. But he has finally been shut down. It started with X, and now apparently Meta last week has officially blocked him from the platforms. looks like potentially some more security for the industry out there.

Jordan Scales (05:47)

You know, and this is, you know, I hate seeing entrepreneurs being having their product being taken away from them. But when it comes to a matter of safety, I'm fully behind it. You know, as an employee of Clay Lacey, as an aircraft manager, you know, I've been on the receiving end of phone calls from aircraft owners, inquiring on why they can see their information, why they can see their aircraft.

We know all that we can only control so much of what's visible to the public and props to Jack Sweeney. He's a wizard and how he's able to navigate all the technical loopholes to make this information public. But there are parameters that have been set on why the average person does not have this information. And you touch on it, it's safety. It's.

Jessie Naor (06:30)

Right.

Jordan Scales (06:34)

you know, in this day and age, especially with all of the attacks through Oregon's private aviation as a whole, like set aside the individuals who own the aircraft. It makes it really dangerous when people know the exact whereabouts of where these very influential people are. I hope that Jack is able to take his talents and turn it into something that's positive.

Jessie Naor (06:56)

Yeah, he started out. mean, he was trying. I think originally he was trying to highlight the greenhouse gas emissions and the carbon impact and everything. And like, there's a little sliver of a good idea there. But again, like it is these are people that are just moving targets and to give information on where they are at every moment.

maybe he should have just delayed some of his information if he really wanted to make this known and make a point. Okay, I get it. But then yeah, there is that level of safety. And a lot of people, especially in private aviation, don't understand how much is FOIA-able, know, Freedom of Information request with the FAA. You can ask for a lot of information from the FAA and they have to give it to you under FOIA. And I think he has figured out, I interviewed him a couple years ago about this, he figured out how to...

structure those requests and how to get that information and do it in a way that nobody else has really done it. So hats off to the little genius. I do, respect it. But at the same time, I think all these people are a little tired of it at this point.

Jordan Scales (07:57)

Yeah. Yeah. Once again, like I, once I'm not going to knock someone for finding a creative solution to a, to a problem, so long as it's safe. And know, creating fear and instability is, it doesn't benefit anyone. and so like, I really hope that he is able to take, you know, the experience and knowledge that he's gained through this and use it for, use it for good.

Jessie Naor (08:21)

I am sure he will and he's a sharp kid and I'm sure he will figure out how to use his tech skills and investigative skills for other good projects in the future. So our next story, I found this very interesting, just came out a couple days ago, but the FAA has decided that they are going to get rid of in-person meteorologists at their centers.

they're gonna be going to some automated system and the reason this was established in the first place I was looking back some of the history of this there was an accident in 1977 with Southern Airways Killed 72 people including nine on the ground; 20 passengers and two crew did survive But it was due to the FAA and the pilots not having accurate weather information. So

The decision was made to put meteorologists at all these locations. And we're not talking about that many locations, like 21 centers across the US. And I'm gonna say, I love automation. I'm very interested in technology. This one smacks a little bit of, is that a good idea?

Jordan Scales (09:20)

I'm right there with you. I am one who loves tech. I love innovation. But once again, this industry - safety is paramount. Safety has to come first. to eliminate all of the positions seems kind of egregious to me. I think this could have been a slow rollout and maybe it was and that's not information that we were privy to. But

Jessie Naor (09:34)

Mm-hmm.

Jordan Scales (09:42)

to eliminate all of the positions seems quite outstanding. There are just certain, there's a human element to that conversation that can't be replaced by technology. think technology can certainly benefit the process. And I would have hoped that that was a first solution as opposed to just taking, know, butts out of seats for the sake of, you know,

Jessie Naor (09:47)

Yeah.

in future.

Jordan Scales (10:08)

of saving some money. Now I'm sure they did their due diligence and practice and testing this equipment, but it is unfortunate they couldn't keep a few of those individuals. I don't know how you go about choosing who stays and who goes, but to just eliminate everyone from all the centers. Yeah.

Jessie Naor (10:27)

Seems like a rash, I don't know, maybe rash decision. And I get like, yes, a lot of the weather information these days is automated. You we have these machines that tell us, okay, this is the wind shear, this is everything else. But I think too, especially when you're talking about, you know, the centers, they're controlling a huge swath of land and, you know, meteorological impacts.

And weather is just so nuanced. I even look at like our hurricanes. We're not really good at predicting where they're gonna hit, how they're gonna hit, why they're gonna hit. A lot of this stuff is quick and changes and I'm not a meteorologist, but I have talked to a friend who works at a center as a controller and she says she frequently talks to the meteorology team about what's going on, what she needs to look out for. Look at all the reports of turbulence that have happened and people being injured from turbulence.

I think maybe, you know, let's do a pilot project in one location before we go and make this massive change, but we'll see.

Jordan Scales (11:24)

I mean, it's as far as I see that the conversation tech is really good at showing us what's in front of us. But to your point, there are meteorologists that have seen these conditions time and time over and they can take the information that's in front of us and provide that relevant experience to give context to the entire picture. Yes, a technology can tell you that a front is coming in, but that meteorologist is able to, well,

Back in 1992, we saw a very similar front come in and it actually ended up pivoting in vector. And so there's context to the situation that is very pivotal to the conversation at large. We're not just looking at data in front of us, we're taking that and interpreting it against historical data.

Jessie Naor (12:01)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I have to imagine too, like I know, you my dad lives in the mountains. He knows his kind of local weather way more than anybody else and what's going to happen. know, yeah, like the data is there, but he can also get a sense. That's just a really anecdotal thing. But I don't know, there just has to be some really valid information. And again, the context of putting it all together that I would think is missing. But we will we'll see how this goes. The labor union.

and they're not part of the Air Traffic Control union the National Weather Service Employees Organization is sounding the alarm on this, so maybe we'll see a little rollback in the future, hopefully.

Jordan Scales (12:40)

fingers crossed. it doesn't, I hope everything goes well and there is no need to revert decision. But yeah, we're just hoping for the best.

Jessie Naor (12:49)

I want the meteorologist there, just my personal opinion. for whatever it's worth. Yeah, so next story, the e VTOL industry, it's had its meteoroic, meteoroic, I can't say the word, meteoroic, meteor.

Jordan Scales (12:52)

I would love to have a new one. But yeah.

Jessie Naor (13:08)

Okay, the eVTOL industry has exploded over the last few years. I'm having trouble saying the certain words, meteoric rise, they're meteoric rise, perfect, over the last few years. But we're starting to see quite a few chinks in the armor. We already had Wisk I think that was like last year, that had some major issues. Now, Lilium, who was actually at NBAA last week exhibiting, they're going to be going into bankruptcy proceedings.

Jordan Scales (13:14)

Meteoric. There we go.

Jessie Naor (13:34)

Apparently, the local government in Bavaria wouldn't grant them a $50 million loan, which caused a whole number of other lenders not to come in. So they're going to be going bankrupt. They could come back, they said, after they reorganize, but not great news for them. On top of that, Joby also has been raising more capital, got a big investment from Hyundai, but is also diluting their shareholders in the process of doing more capital raises, which is causing a lot of investors to go.

Hmm, okay, so I just put this cash in and now it's diluted. When are we actually gonna be producing the eVTOLs? So it's an interesting time. I mean, did you get any sense of that at the show last week or everyone was just like, look at our beautiful machines?

Jordan Scales (14:16)

So more of the latter, everyone was just kind of stunned by the machines. And I was one of those people as well. As I mentioned earlier, I love tech. I am all for these new aircraft that are taking off. No pun intended. I spoke at an event at Georgia Tech last night and I speaking to one of the students and we both kind of had this moment like, know, we are essentially living, like we're seeing new aircraft come to market. And not just like a new rendition of another.

you know, fixed wing aircraft. Like we're seeing new, completely clean sheet new aircraft come to market. And I was like, yeah, it's almost like, you know, we like being your grandparent, great grandparents and watching the Model T go, you know, transform into, you know, the vehicles that are on the road today. This is just unprecedented stuff for us. And so I've been super excited about it. I, the benefit that this is that

Jessie Naor (15:00)

It's good.

Jordan Scales (15:07)

these future aircraft will bring to society, think is just enormous. from, I mean, just passenger transportation to cargo to EMS, I mean, just so many applications, utility, para public. I've been super excited about this technology. And so it has been sad to see some of the hurdles that these companies are facing. But as someone who worked for an OEM,

who is involved in this space, it's not all that surprising because I understand the investment necessary to take a product from idea to first delivery. And these have been fixed wing and rotorcraft that we are all familiar with. These are platforms that we are familiar with and I've seen how long it takes to get...

Jessie Naor (15:40)

Thank

Jordan Scales (15:59)

these aircraft to first delivery. So for an entirely new type of aircraft, I think that a lot of these manufacturers just may not have been fully aware of the investment necessary to complete this task. I believe in competition and I hope that this market stays competitive.

Jessie Naor (16:00)

Yes.

Yeah.

Jordan Scales (16:23)

But I would not be surprised given the environment if the eVTOL and AAM products that are coming from the historic OEMs are the first to make it to market just because they have the deeper resources.

Jessie Naor (16:37)

Yeah, and that's kind of been my observation too. And also, you know, I look at Joby, they're trying to do everything. know, like they're trying to make every component, every part of it. That's a lot of challenges to take on in one moment versus the OEMs who kind of like, we've been through this before. We're going to get this person to do the engines. We're going to get Thales to do this. We're going to get Garmin to do that, you know, and then put it all together and make it all work. But I think too, the investors...

especially people who are not from the industry, you know, they look at this and they go, wow, this is exciting. This is gonna take over the world. Yes, it may, but everything just moves very, very slowly in aviation and most investors are looking for a return and you know, a five to seven year span. That is not gonna happen in this space. It's just not. So I feel like this is partially...

people kind of getting exhausted and saying, okay, we didn't get to barrel through this like Uber did. Like yeah, because it's aviation and you don't barrel through anything with the FAA and safety and everything else. So I have hope, you know, and I would really like to see them flying one day. My husband says that, you know, he wants to get one and have it in our backyard. He's a helicopter pilot, so I he thinks this is awesome. But I still think we've got quite some time before.

Jordan Scales (17:43)

What can I say?

Jessie Naor (17:48)

before this is coming to fruition.

Jordan Scales (17:51)

Yeah, unfortunately, you know, I, I'd been really excited about some of the front runners in this space. and you know, with, with Llium in particular, I that, that the, that airframe that, that design is just so unique. and I think they had like over 400, already, like deliveries that were, that were slotted or, or, LOIs. So, mean, you and I know, you

Jessie Naor (18:03)

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

780 firm orders already and MOUs. Yeah.

Jordan Scales (18:16)

what happens when there's a minor supply chain disconnect and fixing your craft. So let alone like a company is stalled right now for capital funding. That 2026 delivery is, I mean, that's gone. That was gone last week. The goalpost just keeps moving further and further.

Jessie Naor (18:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jordan Scales (18:39)

in this industry. it's sad because, and you know, I work for, you know, I work for a company that has an FBO business line. And you know, we are already, we're starting to build infrastructure for these new platforms. so it leaves us in a weird position. You know, it's this chicken and egg thing. Like the, you know, one, the product can't exist without the infrastructure, but you know, who's willing to invest into the infrastructure if the product keeps getting delayed?

Jessie Naor (18:54)

Hey.

Jordan Scales (19:05)

further and further out. know, it puts Clay Lazy and other FBOs of the world who are investing into this space in a kind of a precarious situation.

Jessie Naor (19:13)

Yeah, it's the classic chicken or the egg, you know, when do I install the charger? And the infrastructure too, I mean these things are gonna need a lot of power, you know, this is not like your basic, you know, plug in the wall and charge it up, like you're talking about serious infrastructure changes to a lot of airports that have very antiquated infrastructure in the first place. It's gonna take some, I think probably government grant funding and a lot of the other things when we finally do get there.

But that's a great segue to the next story on Sky Harbour, who's a kind of a newbie in the FBO space, but one of the few companies that went public during the SPAC craze of 2021 and is actually doing well. And full disclosure, I'm invested in them because I love their business model. So I just had to put that out there before I'm talking about them. But and I've written to, I write on Seeking Alpha, I do investment analysis on certain companies and Sky Harbour is one of the ones that I cover because I think it's

It's really unique and interesting, they've just secured another $240 million in funding, which will get them through 2026 at this point to build all their campuses. It's a really unique model because they're not like that traditional FBO. They're not selling fuel. This is really kind of a private hangar. they service the customers kind of in conjunction with the FBOs on the field.

So I don't know, what do you think Jordan? Do think this has legs, this model?

Jordan Scales (20:37)

100%. 100%. So I'm a big fan of Sky Harbour as well. Andre and Milly are really great people. And I a chance to connect with some of their folks last week. And as someone whose job it is to build remote flight departments, I love what they're bringing to the space. They are bringing a new and unique twist to what your private aviation experience looks like. also,

the more hanger space, the better. You know, they need it. You know, it is. I'm a huge fan of what they're doing at Sky Harbour. And I think that they've had so much success in this space because their product resembles something that investors are already familiar with. You know, if we parallel this to to eVTOL-AAM these are technologies that no one can.

Jessie Naor (21:04)

Yeah, we need it.

Mm-hmm.

Jordan Scales (21:26)

Yeah, it looks kind of like a helicopter, but it's not. And it's kind of like a plane, but it's not. But most folks understand real estate. given the supply and demand situation that we're in right now, yeah, there's very little real estate out there. So let's pump some money into this company that is able to build this infrastructure without all of the other expensive legs that come with, you

opening up a whole FBO and MRO station and getting fuel involved. They create the physical space and aircraft come.

Jessie Naor (22:00)

It's very simple. We will build this beautiful hanger that's your exclusive use. We'll bring it in and out as you need it. We'll fuel it, but we're not the ones you're dealing with on fuel. gotta deal with the local FBO. But that also allows them to get into spaces that a lot of people can't. A lot of people wanna open up a brand new hangar but they want those fuel rights because that's a really big deal. they can go into the Miamis and the New Yorks and everywhere else because they're like,

I'm not trying to compete on your fuel business. I'm just trying to build a nice experience for a private customer. and like you said, it's that, you know, consistent real estate returns. It's a specialized kind of real estate and there is just not enough space for all the airplanes that are out there to go somewhere. So they've got kind of a captive market.

Jordan Scales (22:47)

100%. 100%. And I heard how they are with some of their new projects, how they are creating some creative nuances in their product to make it even more accessible to more people. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of what they're doing out there. I'm looking forward to putting one of my planes at Sky Harbour.

Jessie Naor (23:02)

It's very cool.

There you go. But all the the T Hangars that are getting knocked down, they're probably annoyed with it. But it is what it is. It's the way of the world.

Jordan Scales (23:12)

Yes.

Jessie Naor (23:13)

And speaking of the way of the world and outer space, Boeing is finally trying to get out of the space business. According to a Wall Street Journal report, they're trying to exit, which is not surprising considering the recent Starliner debacle, the crew members being stuck at the International Space Station until Elon Musk's SpaceX. I'm always talking about Elon Musk on this show, but until he came to rescue them.

On top of that, there was another project The Artemis crew were supposed to go to the moon, but that has faced multiple delays and over cost overruns. And gosh, I just feel so bad for Boeing. They used to be, you know, a jewel in the American manufacturing world, but they're not doing so well lately.

Jordan Scales (24:00)

Yeah, it's unfortunate. It's very unfortunate. Boeing being one of those just historic companies in this industry, they're getting kind of long in the tooth, it seems like. It's ironic a company that designs such technological products is still kind of antiquated in some aspects of the business.

You know, it has made space for companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin to kind of step in and bring the industry into the future. And so once again, I love competition and these companies do at least appear to be moving faster and smarter than Boeing. But in the same sense, it's sad. know, everyone is familiar with this brand name of Boeing. I hope that this pivot

allows them to reallocate their resources in making Boeing what Boeing used to be. So if it takes them getting out of space to improve their commercial division or into their military and defense divisions, so be it. it is shocking to not have Boeing and space travel in the same conversation.

Jessie Naor (25:12)

Yeah, I know because I mean we're talking about you know they've been involved in this I think since the 80s I care I read it somewhere but I mean they you know they were involved in the International Space Station which is going to be decommissioned you know in the next few years they've been so integral in that world but you know like you've said this is probably a time for them to regroup and refocus on what are our core competencies

You know, I mean, they don't design a lot of new aircraft these days. They just kind of keep reinventing. So like, who is Boeing going to be in the future? And it probably starts with, okay, let's cut out. We know we're not doing this well. Let's give this to someone else that can maybe take it and run with it. But it will certainly be a sad, sad day when Boeing's no longer in the space business. If it happens, it's just rumors at this point.

Jordan Scales (26:01)

Well, I believe in those tea leaves in this conversation.

Jessie Naor (26:04)

It makes sense.

Jordan Scales (26:06)

But as we said, I do hope it's to make the company greater, ultimately.

Jessie Naor (26:11)

Yes, no, I want to be able to say again, if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going. All right, well, with that, we're going to wrap up the pods today. Thank you for joining us. The VIP seat is the best way to get your top stories in business aviation each week in a quick and simple format that you can listen to on a drive. Make sure you're sharing this with your friends. We can't keep bringing you awesome co-hosts like Jordan today if you don't share.

Jordan Scales (26:16)

Exactly.

Jessie Naor (26:37)

So we look forward to your comments and suggestions and we'll see you next time on the VIP